Beagle
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 11:09:11
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brundlefly
Hey, Mods. Could you please move this to the Coffee House? I get tired of even having to see the thread title at the top of the SONAR forum for 30 days every year. 
Whoa! why do you want it flushed downstairs??? just lock it. the Coffee House is not a trash can. and once the name calling started (regardless that it's a company that is being called names) then it's a violation of the TOS, it's not a CH discussion.
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John T
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 11:29:11
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Yeah, it's kind of getting a bit out of hand now. We've got posters baldly asserting that Cakewalk are criminals and fascists. Which is all a bit too silly to take seriously, but still.
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Twigman
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 11:31:10
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John T
We've got posters baldly asserting that Cakewalk are criminals
Which they are. They are not complying with VAT law and so are, technically, acting criminally. Edit: but I do have a full head of hair thank you
post edited by Twigman - 2010/11/08 11:32:15
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John T
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 11:39:02
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You seem to be happy with a rather low standard of evidence for this claim.
Go on, what laws are they breaking, specifically?
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Twigman
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 11:42:13
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John T
You seem to be happy with a rather low standard of evidence for this claim.
Go on, what laws are they breaking, specifically?
As far as I am aware They are not providing a legitimate VAT invoice with purchases from the Cakewalk online web store. Also it is apparent that one cannot purchase from Cakewalk excluding VAT even if you advise them of your VAT registration - this contravenes VAT law too. They refuse to furnish me with their EU VAT registration details which should be available on request. I have asked 3 previous years and been refused on each.
post edited by Twigman - 2010/11/08 11:47:57
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John T
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 11:47:24
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"As far as I am aware" is a pretty weak basis for definitively accusing an organisation of fraud, don't you think?
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Twigman
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 11:50:10
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John T
"As far as I am aware" is a pretty weak basis for definitively accusing an organisation of fraud, don't you think?
I am accusing nobody of fraud  I am accusing them of not complying with the VAT rules. If they were compliant then they should openly publish their VAT registration details and accept orders excluding VAt for VAT registered customers. They do not. Also if the prices stated in their web store include VAT as Cakewalk claimed in 2008 then they should quite clearly state as much (and the rate at which VAT has been applied) - they don't. Even you can go and have a look at that and see that they don't.
post edited by Twigman - 2010/11/08 11:52:08
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John T
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 12:04:02
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Well, you did say this: "2 years ago Robin Kelly suggested that Cakewalk themselves collected and paid the VAT over http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=1493554 ...if thet were the case then they would surely provide their VAT registration details on request. I have previously requested but never been given them. I can only draw the conclusion that they are not EU VAT registered and that they are spinning a yarn to all those who question their pricing policies." Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to be suggesting that Cakewalk are not paying VAT. Which certainly would be fraud. Or are you not suggesting that?
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Telecaster
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 12:56:49
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Honestly who gives a s**t about 20 quid, stop moaning about something that wont change. It is the same crap every year, and the funny part is that most of you buy it any way.
Cheers Mike PC I7 3770k, 16Gb ram build to Jim Roseberry specs. Sonar X3 PE, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 , Edirol PCR-800.
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ssebs
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 14:37:49
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Mike, you don't care personnaly, but see how many people complain about that issue, this is not the matter of one or 2 isolated guys
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John T
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 14:44:22
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Indeed. It's a good six or seven people.
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majicmuzic
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 14:53:35
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All I know, this company is showing how greedy it can be by only offering free upgrades to X1 by "current" (after 10/31/10) owners of 8.5! That is total BS... I paid my money for upgrade, therefore what makes me different from someone who just upgraded??? Makes absolutely zero sense!
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ssebs
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 15:24:49
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Indeed. It's a good six or seven people. I have computed exactly, but it's more about 20 people who complain about that in this thread, and it's one of the most active and viewed threads in the X1 forum, so it's not as anectodal as you think. And cakewalk don't reply, probably because they can't justify their policy regarding this grey zone around EU VAT.
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John T
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 15:32:27
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What grey zone? Nobody's been particularly clear about what rules they think are being broken. This is just passing into "thread fact" because people want it to be true.
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ssebs
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 15:48:06
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Twigman complained precisely about the fact that they never provided a VAT registration number, and thus they don't respect the VAT laws, which allows somebody to get the VAT back (provided of course this person is also registered...). See also http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1493387 Edit: some interesting complementay information: I checked my old " Order receipt" emails from cakewalk concerning my orders from the cw store. It was always indicated "Tax: 0". Thus the price difference is not officially justified by the VAT, it's purely a CW policy (and thus as I suspected the difference from the simple exchange rate goes directly in the cw pocket). For downloads they can't say it's a matter of more expensive man hour, because I don't think EU guys are implied in treating download orders -or if it's manual and not automated, they should think about hiring other software guys 
post edited by ssebs - 2010/11/08 15:54:26
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John T
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 15:52:15
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Right. So Twigman is definitely an expert on the VAT laws, and we should just accept at face value that the law is being broken?
Which law is being broken?
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Beagle
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 15:57:12
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ssebs
Twigman complained precisely about the fact that they never provided a VAT registration number, and thus they don't respect the VAT laws, which allows somebody to get the VAT back (provided of course this person is also registered...).
See also http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1493387
Edit: some interesting complementay information: I checked my old "Order receipt" emails from cakewalk concerning my orders from the cw store. It was always indicated "Tax: 0".
Thus the price difference is not officially justified by the VAT, it's purely a CW policy (and thus as I suspected the difference from the simple exchange rate goes directly in the cw pocket). For downloads they can't say it's a matter of more expensive man hour, because I don't think EU guys are implied in treating download orders -or if it's manual and not automated, they should think about hiring other software guys
Then someone should contact the government tax office and turn them in. That will solve everything and the complaining (and name calling) will stop, right?
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ssebs
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 15:58:03
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See my edited message. In fact it seems that they don't officially ask for any VAT, at least for Switzerland... The price difference is thus only a policy choice. Edit: to be clearer, I was right in my original complain: the european price is supposed to include EU VAT, but when ordering for Swizerland, no tax is included, but the price remains the same... Wouldn't you be a bit suprised if you go to a tax free shop, but you discover that the tax free price is the same as the price including tax?
post edited by ssebs - 2010/11/08 16:02:24
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kubalibre
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 16:03:59
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Now that is strange - last time I ordered an update from Germany because they got it earlier than the UK, and I also did not pay the VAT, so actually it was cheaper (not really, getting VAT back in UK anyway) so why is Cake not making VAT exceptions for foreign buyers??? that seems REALLY odd. 20% extra on all purchases form overseas is a lot of money...
--------------------------------------------- all crash on the louspeaker
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Twigman
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 16:07:57
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I am a qualified accountant.
I do know thw VAT rules.
Previously they justified the price differential as VAT.
If it is VAT then they should provide the information. [ registration details, rate charged and amount of VAT included in the prices offered].
They don't so they are in breach of the VAT laws.
If it is not VAT then they are misleading thris customers.
Simples.
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ssebs
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 16:09:58
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Beagle
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 16:15:57
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Twigman
I am a qualified accountant.
I do know thw VAT rules.
Previously they justified the price differential as VAT.
If it is VAT then they should provide the information. [ registration details, rate charged and amount of VAT included in the prices offered].
They don't so they are in breach of the VAT laws.
If it is not VAT then they are misleading thris customers.
Simples.
If it's simple then turn them in for violation of VAT laws. I don't know VAT laws from naked mole rats. but if it seems pretty simple to me that complaining incessently on a user peer forum doesn't get you anywhere. either contact them DIRECTLY, or just contact the official government and let them sort it out. they (cake) might stop selling in Europe after that. I don't know. either way it would be resolved and the name calling and incessant complaining would be over.
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John T
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 16:18:00
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Twigman
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 16:24:23
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Beagle
If it's simple then turn them in for violation of VAT laws.
If they are not actually registered nor charging for VAT then there is no way to turn them in. They won't have been breaking any laws - they'll merely have been misleading their customers. If they are charging VAT then the only way to identify them to the VAT authorities is via their VAT registration number, which they won't give out despite it being a requirement of charging VAT. I have contacted them directly in years gone by but they never give this information out. I suspect that they are not in fact accounting for VAT on download sales from the web store and that all Europeam customers are merely being asked to pay a higher price. The least Cakewalk could do would be to state that this is so or publish their VAT registration number. If they did that all the complaints would stop.
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kubalibre
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 16:27:15
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oh, how unfair.. even the Steinberg.net online shop, a german company (!) is selling Cubase way cheaper in the US than in Germany: USD 499.- EXCLUDING VAT vs. EUR 604.- INCLUDING VAT.. so THAT is a fair online shop policy.. although the pricing is also a bit strange I didnt notice the US have become a third world country in the meantime... what happened.. .?? oh the financial crisis.. right.
post edited by kubalibre - 2010/11/08 16:29:37
--------------------------------------------- all crash on the louspeaker
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John T
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 16:30:08
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Twigman
If they did that all the complaints would stop.
I seriously doubt that.
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ssebs
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 16:31:21
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As stated on the links that I provided, US vendors who offer download are indeed requested to ask for the buyer country VAT, it's the current EU law. Thus Twigman you could complain about that. On my side I can't do it because CW is not supposed to collect VAT for Switzerland since it's outside EU (and the customer pays the VAT with the custom taxes when receiving the parcel... but I don't know if the VAT sould be asked also for downloadable items...). Anyway, I will wait that the upgrade will be available in a german shop. Thus for the same price as the one asked from CW for the download, I will get the boxed version with printed manual  (because this store, as opposite to CW, sells without VAT to swiss people, which is the normal business behaviour)
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Twigman
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 16:35:06
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John T
Twigman
If they did that all the complaints would stop.
I seriously doubt that.
Look you don't have to read them so why do you bother?
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Karyn
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 17:08:32
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John T
Nobody's been particularly clear about what rules they think are being broken. This is just passing into "thread fact" because people want it to be true.
I have stated several times exactly what rules are being broken. For your benefit I'll state the rules again. To keep things simple I'll show everything as US$. At todays rate (which isn't changing very fast) £89 = $142 Yes, I do this at work all the time. There are 3 basic options:- - Cakewalk charges $99 and leaves the purchaser responsible for the VAT. For boxed product this is easy (the courier charges you) but for electronic delivery it is almost impossible to enforce, so the EU beaurocrats came up with...
- Cakewalk charges $99 + 17.5% VAT (the rate in Ireland). Total $116.32 Cakewalk MUST supply a VAT invoice for tax purposes to the purchaser so that purchaser can claim back the VAT if they're registered. The invoice MUST include net price, VAT charged + rate and VAT Reg number. Total after VAT rebate $99
- Purchaser supplies proof of VAT registration in the form of a valid VAT Reg number at the checkout. Cakewalk can then zero rate the VAT. Total at checkout $99
If Cakewalk are adding on VAT then they MUST follow either option 2 or 3 else they are breaking the rules. Either way, we are talking electronic download. No postage, no packaging, no disks, no further costs. So why are we being charged $142 when the rest of the world pays $99 ?????? ANY reasonable excuse (except VAT) will be good enough for me. Remaining silent and ignoring a simple question is NOT good marketing.
Mekashi Futo. Get 10% off all Waves plugins.Current DAW. i7-950, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, 12Gb RAM, 1Tb SSD, 2x2Tb HDD, nVidia GTX 260, Antec 1000W psu, Win7 64bit, Studio 192, Digimax FS, KRK RP8G2, Sonar Platinum
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brundlefly
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Re:Looks great, but the announced pricing surely is a misprint?
2010/11/08 17:18:18
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ANY reasonable excuse The majority of the extra revenue from the UK goes to pay for the fireworks display at Cakewalk's annual Independence Day employee picnic, and a small portion covers the costs of translating Noel's "Under the Hood" post to "Beneath the Bonnet".
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