Looping playback in X3 losing sync - X3D broke

what is so hard for SONAR to keep things in sync during loop playback??

WHY DO WE HAVE TO PUT A METRONOME ON TO KEEP THE SYNC??!!??

SONAR should be able to keep time on it's own without us having to set a metronome on!! This is a bug and needs to be fixed.
 
I did some additional research and found that setting the metronome on during the loop playback somehow helps SONAR keep sync. Shouldn't a sync during playback be expected without additional intervention by the user? Having to enable the metronome during playback, turning the metronome bus down so you don't hear it during playback are additional steps I don't think we should have to do to use SONAR. The bakers need to fix this.
 
Once again irritated at SONAR X series of the DAW. I thought things would be better, but not really. Already been caught up in too many issues today to keep the creative juices flowing... I may just go to 8.5 and finish this project up.

Hi Craig, maybe it has to do with the length of the loop? I am using 12 bars in the loop playback.

The sync issue seems to be a known issue because I got the metronome insertion idea from digging up prior posts in the forum and a lot of people have reported out of sync issues with loop playback. these loops are not groove clips either.  ;)
 
I have 12 bars of superior drummer as the synth module and using 12 bars of midi track as the input.
I have 12 bars of acoustic guitar and bass
 
all clips have been scissor cut on measure boundaries. They are all the same length. When I don't have the metronome active, I get an out of sync issue. With the metronome, I do not get out of sync condition.
 
I really appreciate you trying to recreate this issue. It is frustrating me too  :)

Guitarmech111
all clips have been scissor cut on measure boundaries. They are all the same length.

Humor me...check under Preferences > Customization > Snap to Grid. Is "Snap to Nearest Audio Zero Crossings" checked? If so, it was probably checked when you cut on measure boundaries.
 
I'm going out on a limb here, and Cakewalk will probably give me a :facepalm: emoticon, but maybe the "turn metronome on" solution might actually be a bug that forces a reset and ignores the extra few samples that are added or missing when a cut snaps to audio zero crossings instead of measure boundaries.

I would also like to add that the test bar for snap sensitivity does not really work well. I am able to drag and leave that test bar in the middle of a line and it does not snap at the 2nd from the last sensitivity selection. Basically 2 clicks from extreme seems to do very little snapping.

The timing sync issue is not completely gone, but it is about 65% better without using the metronome.I wa able to loop it for 9 times without too much sync issues. I stopped playback at that point and restarted playback. The restart was more on time compared to the 9th time through. I was noticing an issue after 3 times without that flag set before. So it is better, but not fixed.  THX AGAIN!

This is not really solved. The drums are staying on time, but the audio is creeping further out. I have the new groove clips stretched out to measure 99 in my project. I have measures 39 through 50 set to loop. playing back that range over a dozen times, the sync gets off still. If I stop and restart playback I can tell the difference. At least the groove clip issue is resolved. :) Now it is the loop playback out of sync issue.
 

Frankly, I think the whole clip/loop boundaries thing is a red herring. I've been playing around with this for the last hour or so. I ginned up 4 lanes of MIDI driving Addictive Drums for 8 bars with a two-bar repeating pattern. I recorded all parts live, and quantized 50% just to tighten things up a little so the clips still started and ended randomly.
 
I then bounced each lane's output to a separate audio track, and started playing around. Addictive Drums doesn't null like Session Drummer due to sample randomization so I didn't try to do that; I just let the parts play together and relied on hearing any sync errors that were more than just phase variations.
 
First I tried every randomly sized loop imagineable with snap disabled, changing lengths, dragging them back an forth endlessly and clicking randomly inside the loop boundaries to change the Now time, then stopping and letting loops play for dozens of iterations without moving them. The only problem I managed to generate was having the MIDI notes drop out a few times (maybe once in 20-30 moves of the loop), but this would clear up as soon as I moved the loop range again. Nothing ever went out of sync.
 
Then I enabled Audiosnap with Autostretch on the audio, and started alternately changing tempos and randomly sizing and dragging loops. No problem.
 
Then I disabled Audiosnap, groove-clipped all the MIDI and Audio and dragged it out to measure 217 or something like that. I repeated the random loop sizing and dragging exercise, and could not generate any real problems. One time when resizing a loop, I managed to get MIDI and audio to go out of sync, but it was a fixed offset - not a drift - and cleared right up with the next loop move.
 
I don't understand why some environments seem to have this problem consistently, because I find it extremely difficult to replicate any thing resembling a MIDI-Audio sync drift, no matter how I abuse loop start and end points. The only thing that really matters is to make sure that groove clips repeat at whole measure/beat intervals, even if not on the beat, and that's easily accomplished by slip-editing their ends to the nearest measure/beat before groove-clipping them.
 
I dunno. It's a mystery.   Makes me never want to upgrade my machine or OS again.

Anderton
And you turned off Snap to Audio Zero Crossings prior to setting loop points, right?
 
I'm sure this is the kind of thing I could solve if I was sitting at your computer, but I'm not. I don't know what to recommend because I've never had this problem, so I've never had to solve it...so I can't recommend a solution.
 
I am sort of curious, though, why it's so important to be able to loop a section internal to the song. Why not just copy and paste the loops to fill the needed amount of time? And if they go out of sync then, you'll know the loops aren't trimmed to precise measure boundaries.

I am absolutely positive that I have zero crossing off. After what we went through, I don't forget easily.  ;)

As I said, with that setting, it is better sync, but eventually goes south. With the metronome on, it is rock solid.
As far as importance of looping a set of measures, if the program is able to do something, it should do it with excellence.

I have the progression looping because I try to get inspired with timing and phrasing of word passages. Things don't come to me instantly. I have to put some effort into making sure stuff fits in phrases and thought patterns to make sure the words make sense and are somewhat of a storyline. That is just how I roll.

The loops are trimmed to the precise timeline, beats and tempo. The GCL values are 48 even beats and tempo is 85 even. As I mentioned before, I will not soon forget what you helped me with. I don't like shooting myself in the foot if I don't have to. My machine is plenty fast so latency is not an issue.
 
The good part about this is that I can restart playback to get back in sync or run with a silenced metronome. I guess it is wrong to expect a program to work without issue if it has an available function?  ;)

I have the same problem. It was the same in X2.

C'mon guys, the cavalry has arrived and is awaiting instructions! 

Will try and get back to you.
 Thanks Ron.

What is it that you are calling split MIDI/audio tracks?
 
I have an instrument folder with the midi and separate sudio tracks. I also have the project Craig worked with if you want to play with it. It will need some audio trimming and bounceing of the clips before groove clipping. I can OM you the download location if you want.
 
btw, some of us don't monitor this forum all day.  ;) I just came in from mowing the lawns.

Thanks for your help in tracking this down. Since 8.5 there have been about 3 bugs that exhibited the same symptoms of MIDI drift during looping. 2 were fixed during the X1 and X2 cycles. Hopefully this will be the last one. In the meantime, keep the Synth audio track gain set to 0 and use the synth's output for gain staging before the track fader or use metronome playback to avoid the issue.
 
If anyone is experiencing MIDI sync issues during looping that still occurs with setting the Synth's audio track gain knob to 0, please let me know.  

Dan Cate [Cakewalk]
Thanks for your help in tracking this down. Since 8.5 there have been about 3 bugs that exhibited the same symptoms of MIDI drift during looping. 2 were fixed during the X1 and X2 cycles. Hopefully this will be the last one. In the meantime, keep the Synth audio track gain set to 0 and use the synth's output for gain staging before the track fader or use metronome playback to avoid the issue.
 
If anyone is experiencing MIDI sync issues during looping that still occurs with setting the Synth's audio track gain knob to 0, please let me know.  

Dan, can you please comment on my post above?