Loudness Wars and Levels???

I am still having major issues getting my levels to compete with other tracks I hear, especially commercial tracks. I have two examples below, one is one of my tracks I am working on and trying to get it up to part with the second clip. I want the drums to knock the same or close to it, the bass to hit hard and feel the low end, snares in your face etc... I read that this is all about the mix... I spend time getting my mix to what I think sounds great, bound it out, master it and it still doesn't come close. I keep getting the response to go back to the mix and fix the issue there... Can someone give me some guidelines here? What I am I looking to do? There any general rules of thumb? Do kicks sit at a certain decibel level? Etc... These are all things I wonder while trying to get my mixes to sound as close to commercial as possible, so far, its not happening! I turn to the guru's... Please help guide me and get to the bottom of this: Clip 1 - My Clip I am trying to get knocking: http://www.djdarkside.com/sonarx1/clip1-soft.mp3 Clip 2 - a reference track I am working too: http://www.djdarkside.com/sonarx1/clip2-loud.mp3 Any info would be appreciated. thank you in advance!

Hi ! 

Humbly, I'd say your mix actually is better sounding to me,
the only thing, is that bass and snare drum seem to compete in the low mid-range, 
making the mix a bit muddy.
also, you could layer your bass drum with a sub kik, since there is nothing really in that range, (but that is more of a creative decision, than a mix tip , up to you) you would also have some room for a sub bass depending of what you do with the kik. 

Overall, I think your mix lacks presence, in the higher mid , and hi frequecies, 
snare, brass, and comping track (this one more in the mid-high) would benefit from extra shine (but not the cymbal). also, notice how the hihat is loud on your reference track, and so recessive in yours. 

also, I tend to think there is a bit too much reverb in the comping part, or you could try a more charismatic reverb sound, or even a delay slapback (with filtered lows), or a nice plate reverb .. 

As of reverb, I would try filtering out the lowest edge of the reverb, putting an roll off EQ right after the verb bus. 

As for charisma, I would try to reamp the bass, kik, snare, and comping track, individually, into some amp simulator (you should buy izotope trash IMHO), and find a cabinet voicing that, once in the background, adds 3d, and deepness to your tones, add to taste, but in a way you don't notice too much it's there, but once you take it out, traks sounds like plastic again.

I think the song is killer, keep on doing what you do ! 

V

I put both clips through the DR meter and they are equally loud. Both at -8 and peaks at 0.  The difference is in the perception of loudness due to the transient peaks that come through differently.  If you think of a loud diesel engine and a jack hammer they could both be putting out the same dB level but the jack hammer will cut through.    Try putting the PX-64 on the tracks  and use the transient shaper and maybe the EQ to bring out the dominant sound of each but let the intrument with competing similar EQ ranges dip at those EQ's.  
You could also double the brass by adding a higher octave and do a major transient shaping to make them really sharp and short.   It would then leave more room for the bass and kick on the low end

If you look at the wave form of the refernce clip you will see the sharp peaks and quick drop off.  On yours there is a Peak but the rest is almost at the same level. 

When I started to struggle with that problem I finally had two enlightening moments:

I used to try to make snare and kick overly loud and big in the mix. So compressing during the "mastering" the compressor spent it's juice squashing those two and never got into squashing the other instruments (not without artefacts at least). Lowering the level of snare and kick, and concentrating a bit more in their punchyness and EQ helped a lot.

I also misunderstood the behaviour of the low end. I emphasized it too much. The low sounds push the level meters up, but don't sound loud. When I put a high shelf EQ at 40-50 Hz on the
bass track, or in the Master Bus the mid frequencies could be lifted more front, and the mix sounded louder even though the meter showed the same levels as before. And paradoxally, it sounded more "thuddy" too, because the low frequencies got more audible and defined.

similiar to what others said, I didnt think your reference track was much louder at all. I found that the reference track was a little more sizzle and crispness on the higher end and a little more defined overall, which probably would be due to some EQ as others have advised.

Cian

If I was your mastering engineer, I'd make you remix this before we mastered it. It's very dark sounding with no presence like the others mentioned. Your bass area needs some work. You need to find a sweet spot for your kick drum low end punch...I'd suggest 55-62Hz and you need some "ooom" in your bass guitar at about 75-85Hz. Get rid of the low mids to remove the boxiness and mud and drop 800Hz by about -2.5 dB, add a little 10k to 12k and the mix should come alive.

I just did this really quick for you and because of the eq curve you used as well as the limiting, my hands were tied in a few areas. But I'd be going for something along the lines of this with a more controlled low end kick and bass guitar.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/clip1-DDedit.mp3

It's far from perfect, but like I say, there's only so much that can be done with processing already done to the track...but this is along the lines of what I'd be striving for. :)  Best of luck to you!

-Danny