Low Volume recording problems

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nickl23
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2012/07/03 14:44:06 (permalink)

Low Volume recording problems

Hi again,
 
I am involved in a project that involves the recording of a lullaby. Most of the tracks - particularly the vocal tracks - are recorded very softly and at low volume. This hasn't really presented a problem in terms of compression or noise because there is only moderate compression required and the tracks are fairly clean. So this is a very soft track overall - think along the lines of "Scarborough Fair" in terms of content and instrumentation.
Everything is exactly where I want it in my tracks. I use Bounce to Track only using Left and Right Out (I have a feeling that this may be where the problem lies) Mix Enables for the tracks are activated, 64 bit, automation, mutes, stereo, no dithering etc.. I've tried it with fast bounce and without but either way - the mixed track is clearly deficient. There is a noticeable flattening of depth in the track. The low mids seem a little squashed, the lead vocal has none of the presence and depth of the original tracks - which is really necessary to this project because, as I said, it's basically a lullaby.
I realize that I'm probably doing something fundamental wrong and I hope you can tell me what it is. I cannot live with the difference in quality and I'm unsure where the error lies.
Thank you.
btw I initially went through a process of trying to normalize the tracks to a more substantial volume (-2db) but it radically altered the sound of the project - which I don't want to do. It needs to be soft with a lot of space around it so I want to keep the overall volume where it is, I just want it to translate accurately to the mixed track. Thanks again.
 
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    tomixornot
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    Re:Low Volume recording problems 2012/07/03 15:04:19 (permalink)

    Sorry, while following your process, I got a bit lost. Do you mean everything was ok before you bounce the track ?

    Are you trying to get the final mix out ? ..we use Export for this.

    Albert


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    #2
    Beepster
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    Re:Low Volume recording problems 2012/07/03 15:10:54 (permalink)
    Yeah... I don't see an export happening anywhere in that. I'd export to 24bit then toss it back into Sonar (or if you a have a mastering program) and then give it a final tweak before exporting to 16bit. You shouldn't lose any quality when exporting. I don't even know what all that fancy bounce stuff does yet.
    #3
    daveny5
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    Re:Low Volume recording problems 2012/07/03 16:00:19 (permalink)
    Just because its a lullaby, you still need to record the tracks with the proper levels otherwise your signal to noise ratio will be too low and you'll get hiss and/or noise. Once the tracks are recorded properly, then you can set the overall volume in the mix. You still don't want to make the volume too low because if you're recording a CD you don't want it to sound like that track dropped out completely compared to the other tracks. The softness should come from the arrangement and the way the parts are performed as well as the overall mix. 

    When I use Bounce to Tracks, I usually select Entire Mix as the Source Category. 

    What bit depth and sample rate are you using? 

    Why are you doing a Bounce to Track anyway? You can just select all of the tracks and File-Export it to a WAV file.
    post edited by daveny5 - 2012/07/03 16:13:40

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    #4
    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Low Volume recording problems 2012/07/04 10:38:55 (permalink)
    Yeah... I have recorded a few acoustic things that were designed to be "softer" then other things I normally record. (Footsteps...on my soundclick page)  

    You always want to record the parts at the proper levels to ensure the waves are robust enough. You can soften it later but initially, you need a good solid recording of the instruments and vocals to be able to get good results on the mix down/export. 

    In projects  like this, you probably are going for a more intimate sound. This actually requires ( from my POV) a much closer vocal miking and instruments as well.... not further away and quieter as you might think. 

    Although I used a condenser mic on Footsteps, it was really close in (just an inch or two with a pop filter) on the vocals and also pretty close on the acoustic as well to capture the sound I wanted. 

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    #5
    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:Low Volume recording problems 2012/07/04 14:06:45 (permalink)
    Normalizing does not change the sound of the audio track in any way unless there are FX in the bin that react to input level change. It is EXACTLY, the same track, just louder. If you lower the volume of the track back to the  level you were comfortable with, it sounds just the same.

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    konradh
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    Re:Low Volume recording problems 2012/07/04 18:29:43 (permalink)
    +1 for daveyny5. What you hear (monitor) while recording, the level of the signal on the track, and the final level you use in the mix are three different things. Recommend you get a strong signal going down on the track and then you can mix it however loudly or quietly you want later. You can turn the level of the monitor down while recording if it distracts you to hear a loud signal for something you eventually want quiet in the mix. I set the record levels strong but then get a rough monitor mix that approximates what I want to hear in the final product (although I usually make the instrument I am recording at the moment a little louder so I can hear any minor glitches or mistakes).
    #7
    AT
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    Re:Low Volume recording problems 2012/07/04 19:53:36 (permalink)
    The noise floor for digital is small, but one still needs to record even a soft signal hot to provide a good signal to mix - even if every track is "soft."  I find it makes life much easier, since it is simple to turn down a signal to fit in a mix.

    As far as the bounce you are getting - use Export.  I have never figured out where Sonar puts bounced tracks or the nomeclature.  Of course, I haven't used it in years - things might have changed.

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    noynekker
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    Re:Low Volume recording problems 2012/07/05 01:03:29 (permalink)
    nickl23 . .  . also, make sure all the tracks are routed to a master bus, which is then routed to your soundcard output, so that when you do the export, your mix levels etc. . . will be more accurately exported.
    #9
    nickl23
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    Re:Low Volume recording problems 2012/07/05 15:47:13 (permalink)
    I used EXTREMELY close miking (any closer and it would have been behind me:-) for the vocals and the acoustic guitars. There is very little noise on any of the tracks but the overall level of everything is pretty low just because it was played that way and I didn't increase the input levels significantly when recording. I've tried normalizing the tracks to -2db (with no FX whatsoever in the bin) and when I bring them back down to the mix level, it just sounds different. I know it shouldn't, but it does. Perhaps it's psychological.
    The engineer who is mixing a lot of my stuff (a very, VERY experienced guy with a formidable track record) swears that there is a difference when you do that, so maybe I'm just victim to the power of suggestion. I know they can't realistically be mixed at such low levels but I'm really reluctant to change the sound of the song. Looks like I don't have much of a choice though. Thanks for all the input everyone. I yield to the inevitable.
     
     
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