• SONAR
  • How to get tight sync with MIDI/VSTi? (p.2)
2016/10/07 12:13:51
bigfrog
Hey Pinguinotuerto - Thanks for the link I'll give it a look when I get home from work.
 
The computer is brand new and I've always had these issues, so the issue happened both before and after setting Manual Offset.  Manual Offset did nothing towards resolving the issue or making it worse.   I believe that setting is for when you record audio.
 
And yes, I have played around with the settings under Sync and Caching.
 
Thanks again for the suggestions!
2016/10/07 13:58:45
pinguinotuerto
bigfrog
 
And yes, I have played around with the settings under Sync and Caching.


 
Do you have anything in the Timing Offset box currently?
2016/10/07 15:33:44
bigfrog
There is nothing in the Timing Offset box.  I haven't messed with the settings under Synchronization because to quote you "I thought this setting was for when Sonar is being used as a slave chasing time code from another source."  :)
 
I believe I read that in Sonar's help.  :)
 
But if this setting is so that "you can offset the audio in your project by a number of milliseconds", then it is probably THE SETTING I have been looking for.  :)
 
I'll try messing with this setting when I get home and since reading your thread I'm actually optimistic about this!
 
Thanks!
2016/10/07 15:42:38
pinguinotuerto
bigfrog
There is nothing in the Timing Offset box.  I haven't messed with the settings under Synchronization because to quote you "I thought this setting was for when Sonar is being used as a slave chasing time code from another source."  :)
 
I believe I read that in Sonar's help.  :)
 
But if this setting is so that "you can offset the audio in your project by a number of milliseconds", then it is probably THE SETTING I have been looking for.  :)
 
I'll try messing with this setting when I get home and since reading your thread I'm actually optimistic about this!
 
Thanks!



Yup, believe me, I left that setting alone thinking the same thing for years.  Still doesn't make sense to me that it does what it does considering how it's explained in the documentation, but that's another story. 
 
It solved my issue, which was the opposite of yours (my MIDI was early), but I don't use any external synths, so I think your case is going to be different. I would start by setting a negative offset in your case following the instructions I gave in the other post as far as converting samples to milliseconds. Let us know how it goes. If you have synch issues then between your VSti's and your hardware synths, then Brundlefly is the man to talk to.
2016/10/07 19:08:13
JonD
Not sure if this'll help, but it's timing-related so might be worth a look:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Updated-Significant-performance-improvement-for-me-today-m3237094.aspx
 
2016/10/07 19:49:22
brundlefly
I'm not sure Timing Offset is going to be a good solution in this case. If the Overbridge/Elektron synths were the only external hardware being used, it might do the trick, but the side-effect that MIDI recording gets shifted would not be desirable in this case, and it sounds like there are other hardware synths in the system, too, so one-size-fits-all Timing Offset is not going to work.
 
The first step would be to fully understand where the delay is coming from. The 830ms error mentioned is twice the RTL of the interface. My guess is that most of the rest is due to MIDI tranmission delays, but if the Elektron audio is later than other hardware synth audio, there must be some added response latency.
 
 At best, you might be able to enter a Timing Offset that splits the difference between the latency of regular hardware synths and the Elektron synths so that the regular synths are a little early vs. the audio metronome, and the Elektrons synths are a little late. But then you'll have to watch out for the effect on MIDI record timing... 
 
Personally I would try to avoid all that complexity, and just work on getting a hardware/driver configuration that minimizes both audio and MIDI latencies to the point that they can be ignored. Give RME's reputation, if it won't run pop-free at less then 128 samples on an I7 6700k, I'd start by checking DPC latency of the system. 
 
Without knowing exactly how this Overbridge/Elektron stuff works, it's hard to give more specific advice.
2016/10/08 12:04:13
bigfrog
So the Timing Offset resolved my MIDI latency issue!  So thanks a bunch for that one!  :)
 
However the Timing Offset setting did nothing to resolve the Elektron VSTi latency issue.  :(
It looks like VST is purely audio and the Timing Offset offsets MIDI and audio signal, so the Elektron VSTi audio remains slightly behind the beat.
BTW the VST virtual instruments are in sync with the built-in metronome so I'm guessing this is more of a USB/device driver issue and not a universal VST latency issue.
 
I've also been switching USB ports to troubleshoot this.  Switching from USB 3.1 to USB 3 solved a couple other issues I  had but switching to USB 2 ports introduced more issues (even thought the devices are USB 2).
 
JonD - I took a look at your suggestion regarding the High Performance Event Timer, I'll have to look into this a bit more.  My BIOS does not have an option to enable/disable the internal clock , I did disable it within Device Manager but it didn't make a difference. 
 
Anyways, thanks again for the suggestions I appreciate it.  :)
2016/10/08 12:17:17
pinguinotuerto
Glad we got something resolved.

So the Elektron is actually a hardware analog synth, not a VSTi (Virtual Studio Technology) instrument which is a software synth. Elektron uses Overbridge technology. It allows Elektron analog instruments to be handled as software plugins, but it's not the same thing. Make sure you keep the terminology separate so it doesn't confuse people trying to help.

I've never used these, so I'm wondering if this Overbridge has tweakable settings or if it does its thing automatically?
2016/10/08 12:19:06
pinguinotuerto
BTW, to get the MIDI in synch, did you enter a negative offset?
2016/10/08 12:55:25
bigfrog
No, I entered a positive Timing Offset since the MIDI came after the audio.  So I offset the audio by a positive amount.
 
The Elektron devices are hardware synths that interface with the DAW via VST instruments.  Through the VSTi interface you can control any aspect of the sound plus record the audio as an audio interface. It actually has a synth page where you can tweak filter/envelope/oscillator settings and then save it all within the Sonar project.  It's really quite swell.  They show up in the Plug In Manager under the VSTi list. 
 
There's not a whole lot to mess with in the Overbridge software or the VSTi settings, I've messed with most of the settings so far.  That doesnt mean there might be something in the registry that's tweakable...
 
I came across another forum where somebody was having a similar issue with another hardware synth that interfaced with the DAW via VSTi (I think it was one of the Access Virus).
 
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