• SONAR
  • Acoustic Guitar tone: Platinum plugins, double-miking, or acoustic pick-ups? (p.2)
2016/09/02 10:37:24
vanceen
A "good" acoustic sound can vary enormously, depending on the role that the guitar is playing in the arrangement.
 
Strumming along with a dense arrangement containing bass and drums, piano, other guitars, strings, etc. can be easily captured with a good pickup. For something like that, you're going to cut out all the lower frequencies anyway. Some engineers cut out all but the percussive sound of the strings so that it's hardly tonal, and that can sound great in some mixes.
 
For an arrangemen that's built around the guitar, you need to catch the richness of the instrument at a full range of frequencies. I've never heard a pickup that will get even close to that.
 
And of course there are in between situations.
 
For blocking out a song, the advice given above is good. Use whatever is quick and convenient to capture the song, then go back and re-track with more sonic perfectionism.
2016/09/02 10:59:21
Cactus Music
If your just putting down rough takes and you want cheap and easy, Try a sound hole magnetic PU. I bought one of each of these from Guitar Fetish, all work amazingly well. Certainly not the tone you want in a polished up recording, but they do sound very warm. 
Takes only a minute to instal and does no damage to the guitar.
On my Taylor I use the one with the wire attached so I can leave it plugged in. 
The Taylor also has a under saddle system but the battery dies if plugged in.
On my Art and Luthier I wired it to the end pin jack. They supply all the parts to make this easy and no soldering involved.  The under saddle system drove me nuts as the battery was ALWAYs dead. I use that one live in tandem with a condencer mike for leads. 
The Taylor I use it's built in and the mike for live and recording. The magnetics are just for hacking out parts and ideas, guide tracks etc. 
ht15tp://www.guitarfetish.com/GFS-Acoustic-Pickups_c_443.html
This is the one I use on the Taylor   $10!

 
This is the one I use in my A&L 

 
 
 
2016/09/02 11:24:24
Brian Walton
Fishman Aura with a preset that is matched to both your pickup system and guitar is as close as you will get from a "pickup system" in my experience.
  
However, this is still lacking compared to just micing the guitar.
 
If your situation allows (i.e. it is quiet all the time), just set up a single condenser mic.  It is the same amount of cords as if you were plugging into your acoustic, in fact less, than the OP's Kemper setup.  The only addition to the equation is a mic stand and the mic.  
 
You never know when a take will be "it" so why waste it using a pathetic guitar pickup recording?  Recording via a mic is simple to get better results as long as you have a quiet environment.  
 
 
I've used tons of different pickups, none sound fantastic recorded.  period, end of story.  
2016/09/02 12:10:50
chuckebaby
its funny because ive always done scratch tracks with a built in or add on acoustic pick up.
but when it comes time to do the final takes, I mic it up using a Rode NT 1000.
however, there are those rare occasions where those scratch tracks seems to work there way in the mix.
maybe its because of their less than full body sound. the percussive attack, I cant put my finger on it.
 
but I guess it all depends on the material, the sound your going for, the mix.
EQ can do a lot to cure some of the impurity's received by an acoustic pick up but there is just something about the rich full, body sound of a good mic.
I've even used some of the crappiest mic's out there at certain points of my life.
I have had good success though with most condenser mic's (that require phantom power) but the occasional sm57.
 
my method is not of brilliance but more out of what I have. I use the Rode NT1000 close mic'ing and typically an sm 57 on the neck area and sometimes another SM 57 in the room backed off (between the 1000 and the neck 57.) 
2016/09/02 12:27:21
LLyons
So many good ideas -  I am just a beginner when it comes to acoustic stuff, but I am in a country band that records acoustic guitar tracks, fiddle, mandolin, banjo and the like, so I have a good interest in the subject. 
 
I would say 'NO' to plugins,  'it depends' to double micing and 'probably not' to pickups - depending upon the music genre and function of the track.   
 
The two my input echo are jb101 and LJB - but maybe add a few different thoughts.
 
I like the idea to run scratch tracks first 'in easy mode' when I am writing.  I use a PRS 24 trem which has a piezo. Not electric, but it helps me hear the notes in a relative context. 
 
I like form function.  I have a touch screen that keeps me away from keyboard and mouse, and a nice swivel chair.  I position my mics so that I can turn around into them - about 110 degrees - however, I also adjust my screen so that see it, and my right hand can touch it really easy.  I have a fixed point on the wall so as I turn, I lock into the same place, every time.
 
Mics - its easy once you have a few to think 'it can't be my mics', but from my experience, it is highly possible that what I was reaching for in a sound, required the same mic that I was listening to, used by the artist in a session I got the idea from. I use stereo pairs (of what I can afford) of large diagram condensers (C414s) or ribbons (R121's), for a fuller sound yet maintain a nice presence. That gives me width and fullness.  When its solo or single channel, I tend to use one of each, and blend the two instead of using EQ if I can, and I usually can. To me, thats a goal - NO EQ.  As of late,  FET based mics have piqued my interest because they can have a really nice effect in the presence area.  I am looking at a Mojave 301 FET today and will pick up a pair within the next few months.  I know - pricey for some, but I can cover a house with chalk or paint.  When rain scrutinizes the effort, paint wins.    
 
It is also probable that micing technique can help improve the sound in good ways, in which you eluded to in the subject with pairs - but there is more out there you can explore.   From the simplest 12th fret - single large diagram mic, to stereo pairs and all their positions and configurations like near coincidence and the like.  Each mic also exhibits characteristics that enhance a certain range close in, and further away.   Inches count.  Good folks here on the forum have written a plethora of priceless info on this topic, far smarter than I could ever be on the subject and I use that info, with gratitude to those who care enough to provide it. 
 
Then the room.  When you pick a good mic, its going to do its job well, which may include picking up sound artifacts from the room.  I have found that treating my corners, and ceiling have tamed a bit of the 'room monsters'.  
 
Then the preamp \ converter \ cable team.   You can go a long way with value based electronics, no doubt.  The world we live in has demanded more for less and we win every day.  However, that pre amp can really improve the sound quickly.  Take some time and peek down that rabbit hole.  Another chalk paint thing. 
 
L
    
2016/09/02 13:12:12
Anderton
[I hope this thread doesn't get moved to techniques because the articles mentioned below reference examples using SONAR]
 
I've been recording acoustic guitar, particularly nylon-string classical sessions, for decades so I have some thoughts on the subject. 
 
Stereo miking with acoustic guitar always frustrated me because of phase issues. So I came up with a method to use a single mic, yet do stereo imaging that doesn't involve time delay. There's an article about it here. The technique is also covered in one of my SONAR Advanced Workshop videos, I don't recall which one. It's very effective, and was used on classical guitarist Linda Cohen's last album before she died. 
 
I also wrote an article for Guitar Player magazine on how to make piezo pickups sound more like the sound you get when miking.
 
There were also some contributions to SONAR. The February 2015 "Braintree" release included 15 ProChannel presets for steel-string guitar. Although designed for Gibson acoustics (3 presets for 5 different models), they're in the ballpark for other guitars. This release also had the "Acoustic Piezo" CA-X series amp. According to Cakewalk Analytics it's the second most popular of my FX Chains (after VoxTools) and is consistently in the top 2% of the most-used plug-ins/FX Chains.
 
Finally, for me room mics are the "secret ingredient." The room is what gives the majority of a guitar's stereo imaging. For my electronically-oriented music I've found adding an acoustic guitar playing a rhythm part can really power a song, but the direct sound with a tiny bit of room works best for it to blend in well with the electronic instruments. 
2016/09/02 14:03:07
tlw
That's a useful article on making piezos less "piezo" Craig.

One thing I'd suggest is that as well as eq a little compression can really help, especially on steel-string guitars. Acoustics tend to have a kind of "natural compression" because they've quite a limited volume range. Which is one of the things that "glues" a good acoustic's sound together. Piezos tend not to have a very smooth, uniform response through the frequency range of the instrument or even string to string.

Personally I'd usually think of using a mic or magnetic pickup before a piezo, though I've heard good results from L R Baggs systems and the Godin electros.
2016/09/02 14:18:26
Anderton
tlw
That's a useful article on making piezos less "piezo" Craig.

One thing I'd suggest is that as well as eq a little compression can really help, especially on steel-string guitars. Acoustics tend to have a kind of "natural compression" because they've quite a limited volume range. Which is one of the things that "glues" a good acoustic's sound together.

 
Interesting, because I just received a sample of one of Gibson Acoustic's new "high performance" acoustic guitar models. Apparently they went back to a bracing style that was common in the 30s, which produces a greater dynamic range. I've been playing the guitar, and it's definitely a perceptible difference. I'm taking it home over the weekend to do some recording.
 
Piezos tend not to have a very smooth, uniform response through the frequency range of the instrument or even string to string.

 
True! It takes a lot of EQ to iron out those differences.  

Personally I'd usually think of using a mic or magnetic pickup before a piezo, though I've heard good results from L R Baggs systems and the Godin electros.



I think it depends a lot on musical context. It's great to have choices. The "direct" sound of a piezo really works with my electronic stuff, miking works better with rock (subjectively speaking, of course).
2016/09/02 19:56:35
tlw
If the new guitars can match the couple of 1930s L-series instruments I've been lucky enough to play (but not wealthy enough to justify owning) they should be pretty spectacular. I don't play much acoustic at all these days, but I could be tempted by an L-00.
 
Especially at the 1932 price of $25 rather than the 2016 list price of $2349 :-)
 
What I was referring to is the difference between a microphone recording of a strummed chord on a decent acoustic, where the notes tend to be at a well balanced volume range, and there is a consistency in volume up the neck as well as across it, and what a piezo tends to do with it. Many have a habit of making some notes louder than others, or an entire string louder or quieter, which can be countered by a tasteful use of compression.
 
I must admit that I don't favour piezo as pickups or speakers myself, though they do sometimes have the advantage (or disadvantage, depending on which side of the equation you are) of making a modest guitar and many quite expensive ones sound remarkably similar when amplified. I just find that for what I do and for my ears a sound hole magnetic pickup is easiest to dial in.
2016/09/03 02:22:05
TimV
I wonder if something like this would work for you:
http://myerspickups.com/myerspickups.html
 
It would have the convenience of a pickup, but with a mic.
 
I tried one a while back for my viola da gamba and I was pretty impressed with the sound of the mic. However, at that time they only had the version with the suction cup, and it kept falling off so I had to return it. Now they have the "Feather", which clips on.
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