• SONAR
  • Decibels vs volume
2016/08/31 21:50:15
Jeffiphone
Probably an important newbie question.......

I mixed down a song, burned to cd, and the bass guitar was just crazy loud. Obviously it sounded right in phones and monitors or I wouldn't have burned it. Had all the tracks, including bass gtr, bass buss, and master buss hovering around -12dB. But bass was just way too loud on cd mix, but the dB level was consistent with all other tracks in console view. But in the car, the bass gtr just ruined everything......

And here's the newbie question...... If all tracks and master are registering around-12dB, shouldn't the volume be consistent between all tracks, and the mix be leveled correctly? I've read a little on dB vs volume/loudness, but I think I'm missing something here. Yes, my monitors are not the top of the line, and my room is not treated, but the discrepancy is too striking, so I must be doing something wrong.

Is there a magic plugin that can tell me the solution? 👍🏻
2016/08/31 22:17:46
gswitz
Lots of people have opinions on this.
- EBU Meter (European Broadcasting Union) measures loudness over time. Just decibel is not enough... pitch is also taken into account.
- VU meters have 'ballistics' or slow response both up and down that makes them sort of a rolling average where more recent data is considered more than older data.
 
When I first started, I would mix below 100%, then bounce and normalize the track to see where the loudest moments are and go back and adjust levels in the mix to dip those levels then re-bounce.
After a couple of bounces, I'd apply some limiting to add a dB or two to the volume.
But this isn't a good way to get different tracks sounding with the same loudness on a CD.
 
When you use an EBU meter (what I do now), I reduce compression and limiting on louder tracks to push down the relative volume and increase it on softer tracks to bring up the volume. This gets you an average volume across the CD and also helps you set compression as minimally as you can to get to the volume you are targeting.
2016/08/31 22:39:54
Brian Walton
dB is only one portion of how we end up perceiving volume.  
 
That being said, how is your EQ set up in your car?  If things sounded balanced on your monitors and your headphones, your Car might have balance issues.  
 
On the other note, as an experiment use a compression that has auto gain compensation.  Notice how you clearly hear the "volume" change even though the dB meter should still max out at the same spot.  
 
You can do the same thing with EQ changes and volume as well.  Our ears are more sensitive to certain frequencies so at the same volume, some will tend to stand out more than others.   
 
Was your car volume the same a you had your monitors and headphones set?  The Fletcher Munson curve is something you might want to look up to better understand our perception of sound as it relates to volume and frequency.  
2016/08/31 22:46:57
Cactus Music
There is a long process to master a CD, I use Wave lab to master and it has special tools for this. 
First learn to use your ears, not meters. Over time you will learn to hear on your monitors the correct levels for things like bass. Visual aids will help you learn, but your ears do get better the more you practice mixing. 
 
But here's a simple solution using what you already have in Sonar.  There are many ways to do this but I'm offering what works for me for the last 10 years. This is a visual aid. 
 
Put the LP 64 multi band compressor on your master buss. It will show you instantly which frequencies are pushing your master output. Learn how to use it.  
  
And on the topic of Decibels. Your meters ( Sonars) only show you peaks. A song could have one snare hit and peak @ odb. You can manually look for these or you can use a compressor to bring everything else up. Each method has it's pro's and cons. Manual can give more natural results but it super time consuming. Compression can trash a songs vibe but this is depending on the type of music. I happen to like just the right amount on my music. 
 
So you export your song from Sonar, you used the Multi band ( or??) and it's sitting at -.5db but it's still not as loud as a commercial release.?? 
The next move is to use a global analyzer to show you what the songs average RMS level is. This tells us how loud the song really is.  The modern benchmark depending on style of music is around -14db. . Once again you need to know how to use these tools and use with your ears wide open. There are other tools taht show average RMS, some cost a lot of money. 
 
 
 
2016/09/01 00:38:30
tlw
I'd suggest firstly getting a meter that can show both peak and RMS levels. The track and bus meters in Sonar can be set to do this, but it's a bit involved and they aren't very big. Voxengo SPAN is a well-regarded free meter that's as good as most at any price.

That way you can see what your mix "looks like". Load a few commercial tracks into Sonar as well as your stereo mixdown and, using track solos, have a look at what the meter shows them doing and how they compare. Mixes generally have most energy in the lower frequency regions then trail off in at the high end, but if the bass end of your mix is louder than a few commercial mixes in the same genre that might tell you something.

Secondly, what you've come across is so common it has a name. "Lack of translation". Which means a mix sounds fine on one system, the one it was created on, but seriously wrong on another. It plagues us all at times. No mix is going to sound the same as in your monitors when played on different reproduction systems or in different rooms and most definitely not in a car. The trick, which isn't always an easy one and is possibly the hardest thing to learn in audio engineering, is to try and produce a mix that sounds at least as acceptable as good mixes on whatever it's played through, given the limitations of the playback system.

Monitor quality alone isn't the key thing. Though good monitors certainly help, thousands of good, comercial mixes have been made using what were once probably the most common nearfield monitor and it was anything but flat response and full range. The long out of production Yamaha NS10. They had dreadful frequency response and were nothing very impressive to hear either. But for many people they worked, because the result of being very familiar with how good mixes sounded through them meant it was possible to produce mixes using them that translated to other systems in an acceptable way. And it has to be said that they were very good at exposing any excess mid or harshness.

The same principle applies to rooms. If you know the space well enough surprisingly good results can be had in an acoustically poor room. But good monitoring and no big problems with the room acoustics don't half make things easier.

In other words, you really need to know intimately what good, commercial quality mixes sound like through your monitors and how the sound of the tracks changes when played, for example, in your car. Then, if necessary, try to adjust your mix to do the same sort of thing but also still sounding good in the monitors and in other systems as well.

Cars are a dreadful environment for listening to music, and are probably the hardest test there is. Countless commercial recordings, many million sellers, are destroyed by in-car systems and that's before you turn the engine on and start moving. And when you start driving the road and wind noise make things even worse.

Finally, as has been suggested, look up Fletcher-Munson and how we perceive volume and frequency. If you're monitoring at too low a volume then your mixes will tend to have too much bass (and maybe too much treble as well) when played back at a louder volume. Getting a cheap decibel meter and using it to check your monitor volume can be very useful. Around 79-85dBA at your listening point (use white noise as the test audio) is a reasonable range to aim for.
2016/09/01 08:11:27
Bristol_Jonesey
The first thing to do before burning a CD is to do an export of your song @ 16bit 44.1KHz
 
Import it back into the same project onto a new track. Route this track to a new bus and route this straight to your main outs and compare it to what your mix sounds like
 
Solo your new bus and quick group it with your existing master buss. now you can easily switch between the import and the mix just by pressing the solo button on/off
 
If there is no perceived difference between the 2 then great - you can use the 16 bit export to burn your CD with. 
 
So your project will look something like this:
 
Tracks > Busses > Master Buss > Main Outs
 
Imported Track > New Buss > Master buss > Main Outs.
 
 
If there's anything wrong with the routing of your project this will be immediately apparent. (hint : muting your Master Buss should result in total silence. If it's not, you've got something going straight to your Mains, thereby byapssing any Fx on your master buss)
2016/09/01 08:28:59
chuckebaby
make sure your hardware outputs are set at 0dB.
this is a rookie mistake (eh hmm, that someone here...myself has made before).
 
if your hardware output is lower than 0dB. your export will not be just across the export process itself.
2016/09/01 09:15:07
Roo Stercogburn
Lots of good descriptions and explanations above.
 
Here's a cheat. Pros may facepalm but for rough-mastering so I can listen to stuff on the go with a minimum of effort this works well for very little time investment.
 
It doesn't matter whether you do this on the maser bus or export your finished track to a .wav file for import into your favourite product. Sound Forge Pro works well but really it could be anything. Personally I prefer to export because sometimes I want the original undiluted version for comparison or for someone else to work with.
 
1) Load your exported .wav into app, or cackle like and end-of-level boss and go to the master bus.
2) Apply LP64 Multiband. The exact settings will depend on project. Occasionally I use the default Softer or Louder mastering setting but because I tend to mix quite quietly I have a custom FXP I created with the settings just how I like them. You may always religiously create tracks that are close to -6Db all the time and create a custom FXP for that expected output. Whatever works for you.
3) Boost. Make sure the output is set to Zero DB, and not the default of -3. I refer here to the Cakewalk Boost plugin and not to a chocolate bar.
4) Save.
5) Export to MP3 if required.
 
Done.
 
This is not pro mastering, this is nowhere near as good as pro mastering, it is not meant to replace pro mastering. This is just a quick and dirty way to get something to listen to ambling around the countryside or whatever you do when not being awesome in front of your DAW.
2016/09/01 09:36:16
John
Jeffiphone
Probably an important newbie question.......

I mixed down a song, burned to cd, and the bass guitar was just crazy loud. Obviously it sounded right in phones and monitors or I wouldn't have burned it. Had all the tracks, including bass gtr, bass buss, and master buss hovering around -12dB. But bass was just way too loud on cd mix, but the dB level was consistent with all other tracks in console view. But in the car, the bass gtr just ruined everything......

And here's the newbie question...... If all tracks and master are registering around-12dB, shouldn't the volume be consistent between all tracks, and the mix be leveled correctly? I've read a little on dB vs volume/loudness, but I think I'm missing something here. Yes, my monitors are not the top of the line, and my room is not treated, but the discrepancy is too striking, so I must be doing something wrong.

Is there a magic plugin that can tell me the solution? 👍🏻

DB is a measurement of volume. The dB scale is based on the unit Bell. One tenth of a Bell is a decibel or 1 dB. There are different scales for different uses.  DB SPL is used to measure sound pressure level. Sound level in a live situation.  On a digital audio system the scale can be dB RMS or dB peak or many others such as the K system. All use dB but they use it a little differently. DB by itself has no meaning. It must have how it is obtained. Thus the SPL or RMS part. Volume is a function of the level of the dB. Volume by itself has no meaning either. When one says the volume is 80 dB SPL. Then one knows what that volume is on the dB scale. 
 
In your case it sounds as if you may have exported the project by selecting the entire project. I would use a buss for this. I always use the master bus. But I make sure all audio goes through it. This includes all tracks or sub buses plus all aux returns. Everything must go through the master buss. When you export all you need to do is select it and you will get exactly the same sound as you did listening to the project.  
 
 
2016/09/01 10:06:42
notscruffy2
May I call you Jeff?
 
I say to you, as a self described newbie, there is no plug in until you know what is does.
 
As I learn what the "workman like" basics of signal processing (for me "Dynamics and EQ"). I get better at knowing what I am looking for does. 
 
The thing that has done more for my understanding (I am 4 year old or so) was the introduction of the LM Comp and EQ.
 
I love the head phone icon. It is a great teacher. Create just one band in either tool, slide it around (sweeping) thru the signal while you listen, and listen to what you are limiting or adding (headphone button "no headphones required" it is "listen").
 
Oh by the way the first thing you should do is set those babies to non-linear. They can be nasty in a crowd in the higher settings.
 
This method gives visual data and audible clues. By the way I think it took me 3 years to even have an MP3 I would let someone play on their phone.
 
AMK
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