• SONAR
  • Disappointed with interface - plans to improve? (p.4)
2016/08/30 05:13:20
leegee
That was a lot of responses, and most of them quite unpleasant, so sorry to not have read them all -- the nastiness and the third-person is off-putting.
 
Since I have 20% eyesight, I've been adjusting Windows cursors for some time. I find the custom cursors in Sonar do not scale as large as Windows Extra Large cursors do -- screen shots of non-custom cursors are not relevant, since they are no problem. 
 
Someone said they 'don't see the point' to my post -- sorry if the title was not clear, nor my repeated exposition. 
 
Someone got it, though, and mentioned that 'of course' there is a road map --- but no link. Is there a public road map, then? It would be good for both customers and developers. Sonar has so much going for it, I don't want to have to buy what I consider an inferior product because of what I consider an antiquated interface (click different tools to select, delete, add, lengthen/shorten notes? Touch for Solo/Mute/Rec, but not to select the track?)
 
And to the clever person who pointed out Sonar started later than I used it -- well spotted: I should have said that I used Cakewalk in the late '90s, and switched to Sonar when it was released. Glad you took the time to raise that, it was very helpful.
 
I will buy BitWig, just to see how it works over a few weeks -- their community certainly seems less self-indulgent. 
 
 
2016/08/30 05:55:31
rwheeler
In Windows 10, the additional mouse options link highlighted by Craig leads to a dialog box with multiple tabs that he did not display. In the "Pointers" tab, we have the option to select a "Scheme." One of the choices is "Magnified (system scheme)" which enlarges multiple pointer icons in addition to the normal select pointer icon. I had not seen the "scheme" option until this thread prompted me to poke around in the settings.
 
In the 'Pointer Options" tab, we can click a choice to show pointer trails and use a slider to make them long. That has helped me find the cursor when the screen is very busy. Also there is an option to "Show location of pointer when I press the CTRL key." That can be another way to find a missing pointer (if I remember), but some might find it annoying.
 
In Sonar Platinum, the magnified pointer scheme does maintain the large cursor pointer, which I appreciate. Some of the other mouse pointer graphics don't seem to be larger than before - for example draw tool and erase tool in piano roll view and move tool in track view. Since these graphics are not shown in the pointer customize list of the Mouse Properties "Pointers" tab, I suspect these graphic elements may not be native to windows. Wonder if there is a way to have them programmed to conform to the pointer scheme when one is selected for the system.
 
Anyway, thanks to Craig for the tip about cursor size.
2016/08/30 05:57:14
DrLumen
leegee
That was a lot of responses, and most of them quite unpleasant, so sorry to not have read them all -- the nastiness and the third-person is off-putting.
 
Since I have 20% eyesight, I've been adjusting Windows cursors for some time. I find the custom cursors in Sonar do not scale as large as Windows Extra Large cursors do -- screen shots of non-custom cursors are not relevant, since they are no problem. 
 
Someone said they 'don't see the point' to my post -- sorry if the title was not clear, nor my repeated exposition. 
 
Someone got it, though, and mentioned that 'of course' there is a road map --- but no link. Is there a public road map, then? It would be good for both customers and developers. Sonar has so much going for it, I don't want to have to buy what I consider an inferior product because of what I consider an antiquated interface (click different tools to select, delete, add, lengthen/shorten notes? Touch for Solo/Mute/Rec, but not to select the track?)
 
And to the clever person who pointed out Sonar started later than I used it -- well spotted: I should have said that I used Cakewalk in the late '90s, and switched to Sonar when it was released. Glad you took the time to raise that, it was very helpful.
 
I will buy BitWig, just to see how it works over a few weeks -- their community certainly seems less self-indulgent. 
 



I would say we are protective. If you go into a (DAW of your choice) forum and immediately request changes I would bet you get the same type of response. I don't know about everybody else but I'm tired of companies changing the UI for the mere sake of change. Changes that are more for style and fashion than functional. Perhaps that is not what you meant but UI changes are a sore spot for me. For someone to come in as a newbie and want changes, changes that would affect how the rest of us use Sonar, seems a bit rude. Perhaps rude is too strong of a word but considering "I" am self-indulgent then I'll let it lay.
2016/08/30 07:55:49
Sanderxpander
An overview of past updates with an indication of upcoming updates can be found here:
http://www.cakewalk.com/P.../Rolling-Updates#start

If you find clicking various editing tools annoying, you can use the smart tool which does most of the operations, use a keyboard shortcut to change tools or use a keyboard key to do what you want directly (e.g. S to split a clip).
2016/08/30 08:05:11
John
leegee
That was a lot of responses, and most of them quite unpleasant, so sorry to not have read them all -- the nastiness and the third-person is off-putting.
 
Since I have 20% eyesight, I've been adjusting Windows cursors for some time. I find the custom cursors in Sonar do not scale as large as Windows Extra Large cursors do -- screen shots of non-custom cursors are not relevant, since they are no problem. 
 
Someone said they 'don't see the point' to my post -- sorry if the title was not clear, nor my repeated exposition. 
 
Someone got it, though, and mentioned that 'of course' there is a road map --- but no link. Is there a public road map, then? It would be good for both customers and developers. Sonar has so much going for it, I don't want to have to buy what I consider an inferior product because of what I consider an antiquated interface (click different tools to select, delete, add, lengthen/shorten notes? Touch for Solo/Mute/Rec, but not to select the track?)
 
And to the clever person who pointed out Sonar started later than I used it -- well spotted: I should have said that I used Cakewalk in the late '90s, and switched to Sonar when it was released. Glad you took the time to raise that, it was very helpful.
 
I will buy BitWig, just to see how it works over a few weeks -- their community certainly seems less self-indulgent. 
 
 


I'm sorry that you are having vision problems. However I think if you give it a change you may find it a great GUI. Skylight is a far better GUI than the old one that use to be in 8.5 and below. It will take some getting use to. Also some of the customization for impaired vision is no longer in it. But then there is the new theme editor that may help with contrast issues.
 
Bitwig is not a direct competitor to Sonar. It is far closer to FL Studio or Reason. It certainly will present its own poor vision problems however it does have a slick GUI.
 
I hope you find what you are looking for. No pun intended.  
2016/08/30 08:20:00
dcumpian
leegee
Since I have 20% eyesight, I've been adjusting Windows cursors for some time. I find the custom cursors in Sonar do not scale as large as Windows Extra Large cursors do -- screen shots of non-custom cursors are not relevant, since they are no problem. 



Why not buy a larger monitor?
 
Dan
2016/08/30 13:20:50
Anderton
leegee
That was a lot of responses, and most of them quite unpleasant, so sorry to not have read them all -- the nastiness and the third-person is off-putting.



You were doing fine until you dismissed techniques that did what you wanted as "well meaning" and said things like "If you try to do that yourself, you will see that it cursor size is not respected by Sonar." Clearly it was, because I took the time to use Steps Recorder to show the big cursor being used. I simply assumed that as a Logic user, you were coming from a Mac background and didn't know Windows that well.
 
Also, saying some like "Sonar hasn't moved on since 1999" couldn't help but call into question whether you knew what you were talking about. If you had said "Sonar hasn't moved on since 1999 in terms of helping the visually impaired," I'm sure you would have gotten a MUCH different reception because that statement would make sense and I don't think anyone would disagree.
 
Your question "are there plans to improve?" also seemed bizarre, given that you'd mentioned agile technology and the monthly updates, which are all about improvements and several have related to the GUI. But we didn't have the vital piece of data that you were talking specifically about improvements related not to the interface per se, but the interface as it relates to access for the visually impaired.
 
Also I answered your question "Is there a roadmap for development?" by telling you where to find the information but in the post from which I quoted above, you wanted a link. I'm sorry I didn't provide a link, but I told you where to find those elements of the roadmap Cakewalk was willing to share.
 
This comment also seemed bizarre: "Does anyone at Cakewalk read this forum?" given how the forum is peppered with posts from Noel Borthwick and other staffers, as well as all the updates that were done in response to the forum.
 
It would have been very helpful if you had mentioned in the initial post that you have 20% eyesight. Until that post, we had no idea your complaints essentially involved access issues for the visually impaired. You came across like you were just complaining about the interface. 
 
In retrospect, you may have posed your questions innocently, and if English isn't your native language, then something can come across as condescending and arrogant even when that is not the intention - particularly if people had no way to understand the underlying problem, which wasn't stated until much later.
 
I think the bottom line is this: If you like Bitwig and don't like SONAR, you should use Bitwig. Of course there are improvements planned for the future, but I don't think anyone can say for sure whether they will address your particular issues. Therefore you should go with what works for you now.
 
I'm sorry you had a negative experience in terms of interaction with the forum, but I think you can see how easily what you said could be misinterpreted by those who did not have the data needed to truly understand the problem you wanted to discuss. BTW many times if someone doesn't speak English as their native language, they mention that so people understand there's a possibility of misinterpretation, and they can seek clarification if needed.
2016/08/30 14:13:09
ampfixer
I was helping a guy sort out an amp problem and he was completely blind. At the time X1 had just come out and he was worried about the change from 8.5 because 8.5 integrated so well with Microsoft's built in tools for the visually impaired. At the time, he said it was the best option for him because he would get voice assistance from the software to tell him when he was on the correct controls.
 
I really hope Sonar and Windows have not left him behind. We don't have Cortana Voice in Canadian Windows so I've no idea how visual impairment has been addressed. I have no idea why the Canadian Cortana is mute.
2016/08/30 14:23:39
Anderton
There was another thread where I talked about Windows' magnifier option. It's very helpful if your eyesight is bad, but not helpful to the blind. It's true that Cakewalk's programs worked well with assistance technology at one point however I'm not sure if that's still the case.
2016/08/30 16:46:12
bvideo
Anderton
leegee
That was a lot of responses, and most of them quite unpleasant, so sorry to not have read them all -- the nastiness and the third-person is off-putting.



You were doing fine until you dismissed techniques that did what you wanted as "well meaning" and said things like "If you try to do that yourself, you will see that it cursor size is not respected by Sonar." Clearly it was, because I took the time to use Steps Recorder to show the big cursor being used. I simply assumed that as a Logic user, you were coming from a Mac background and didn't know Windows that well.
...


Maybe the OP should have more explicitly pointed out that all the custom cursors in Sonar stick to their original size, or maybe we should have taken more time to literally try to do that ourselves to realize that Sonar is very cursor-intensive, with loads of custom cursors that don't have size options.
 
The original post was written from a reasonably balanced point of view. The cursor-size-oriented posts that followed were rather self-congratulatory, while totally missing the point that Sonar doesn't offer cursor size options for its own cursors (only in a few cases where it uses Windows cursors).
 
Now that leegee has spelled out his particular need, it might be revealing to reread the whole series of posts from a different point of view. It's an unfortunate exhibit, I think.
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