Hi all
 
I have a session with both audio (vocals, guitar) and MIDI tracks (bass, drums, strings).  I recorded the tracks without a click, and now I'd like to go back and create a tempo map based on the guitar track, so I can quantize the MIDI tracks to it. Trouble is, when I go to modify the tempo, the MIDI tracks end up shifting relative to the audio. This makes sense, since the event start times are grid based and not time-based. Is there any way to work around this, so I can change tempos and have the MIDI events still in time with the audio events?
 
Hope the question makes sense, and there's a workaround. I realize that I could bounce the MIDI to audio, but then quantizing becomes a larger challenge through audiosnap.
 
Thanks!
 
Neel

You're not showing which Sonar version you're using, but there's a relatively new feature available using the Melodyne ARA (Region FX), where you can drag a clip to the timeline, and the Sonar Tempo map adjusts to the tempo of that clip. Hopefully this will help, if you have access to that feature.

User Set Measure/Beat At Now (Shift+M) to to tell SONAR where the beats are. It will automatically calculate and insert tempo changes to make the timeline beats hit those Now times, and the timeline will be shifted around both Audio and MIDI without altering the absolute playback timing of either (MIDI note starts and durations get recalculates to maintain absolute playback timing).
 
Here's and old post that details this approach:
 
     http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/2922802

noynekker
You're not showing which Sonar version you're using, but there's a relatively new feature available using the Melodyne ARA (Region FX), where you can drag a clip to the timeline, and the Sonar Tempo map adjusts to the tempo of that clip. Hopefully this will help, if you have access to that feature.

Be aware that the Melodyne drag-to-timeline function doesn't recalculate the MIDI event times and durations as Set Measure/Beat At Now does, so the MIDI will go out of sync with the audio.

Thanks for the responses, everyone. I've tried various methods, and every time, the MIDI events end up out of sync from the audio.
 
I tried:

• using Set Measure / Beat at Now method for each measure for the intro
• using melodyne dag-to-ruler method
• freezing the synth tracks, which worked until I thaw them, then the MIDI events are out of sync

So I'm convinced now that Sonar can't deal with this issue. Like I said, it does make sense, given how audio and MIDI events are inherently different.
 
My only recourse now is bouncing down all the synth tracks to audio and quantize using Audiosnap.

No, there really is a way to do this but I've only read about it looong ago so I don't know. I think it has something to do with the MIDI Clip Timebase or something VIA the Clip Inspector (Absolute?) and /or I think there is a Prefs/Timeline format option used for film that can be mucked with without incurring stretching.
 
What Brundlefly was saying may hook into some of that.
 
If it truly does turns out that this is impossible in Sonar and you convert the MIDI to audio you could still retreive the performance by reversing the conversion (Drag and Drop ARA Audio to MIDI conversion with Melodyne). The audio to MIDI clip won't be an exact duplicate of the original MIDI but if it's simple enough and you use a nice clear synth sound when you render to audio it'll be pretty close (so don't render/record the original MIDI through some fancy, super effected synth/sound... something clear and clean... you can use the new MIDI to go back to your original sound).
 
You are going have to go through the new MIDI file to do some clean up/correction of doubled notes, missed notes, improperly detected pitches, inaccurate velocities, etc but you can use the audio version as a reference.
 
Actually if you do TWO audio renders of your original MIDI, one with the original synth sound and all the effects and the second with the super clear sound for the MIDI conversion once you get the clear synth audio file turned into MIDI you can use the audio file with the intended synth and all the FX as you reference as you clean up the MIDI.
 
Basically load up the synth/effects you used originally on your new MIDI track that you just converted, mute the "clean synth" audio file (you don't need it anymore) and then, because your new active MIDI track has the same settings/sounds/effects as the audio file you created from the ORIGINAL MIDI track, as you clean up the MIDI notes on the new MIDI clip it should match up to the audio file.
 
 
Whew... sorry that was a stream of consciousness style attempt at problem solving. In the middle of stuff so hopefully that all makes sense.
 
Cheers and good luck. If you figure it out please update.

OK, here my update, if anyone is wondering still about this.
 
The situation is that I left the default tempo and time sig for the session at 120 BPM and 4/4 time. The song is actually in 6/8 time and averages about 75 BPM. I recorded guitar and vocals without a click (obviously) and then added MIDI tracks for bass, drums, and strings. Timing was a little off here and there, so I needed to quantize the MIDI tracks using the guitar track as a tempo guide. When setting the initial tempo at 75 BPM, the MIDI ended up shifting significantly.
 
So after various methods tried (above), I figured the best solution was to bounce the MIDI down to audio and then use Audiosnap to quantize.
 
I used the guitar track to set Beat / Measure throughout the song. Tempo varied from 73 BPM to 79 BPM. Then, I used Audiosnap on all the bounced synth tracks, varying settings as needed for each clip. Quantized with about 85% strength and 85% window.
 
For comparison, here are links to the before (sketch 2) and after quantizing (sketch 3), if anyone is curious.
 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1uk2e8nnmame9pr/The%20River%20-%20sketch%202.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/acxnj4n4tn3dszf/The%20River%20-%20sketch%203.mp3?dl=0
 
If anything, this is a good example of how great audiosnap is, if you know how to use it properly. It's a powerful tool, but has its quirks and can be tedious to enable the proper transients if the auto detection ends up funny (which is most of the time).
 
Neel
 
 

Hey Mondo.....
 
Maybe the take away is to always record to a tempo from the get go?
 
 
 
OK OK I know, too robotic...... yadayadayada......

I've had a few situations like this and they are a PIA.
 
1- Record a midi click track to the song by hand using a keyboard
(you can do it by drawing midi notes in the PRV but it takes a year and a half.)
 
2- Go back and fine tune the click if needed
 
3- Then click on the midi click track and choose Process / "fit imrovisation".
 
The timeline grid will line up perfectly with your click track, which in theory will line up with your material.
Then simply erase your midi click track and use the metronome.

MondoArt
The situation is that I left the default tempo and time sig for the session at 120 BPM and 4/4 time. The song is actually in 6/8 time and averages about 75 BPM.

Sorry I missed your original reply reply. You could have easily changed the time signature to 6/8 without affecting the playback of the MIDI or audio, and then used Set Measure/Beat without bouncing the MIDI. I do it all the time.
 
Nice work, either way.