• SONAR
  • Sonar X3 playback latency issue (Sound Blaster Z) (p.2)
2015/01/24 10:23:17
ampfixer
THe Scarlet at $149 would be just the ticket. I've used them and they work great. Until you buy one I'd recommend that you increase your buffers (and latency) for playback and make them as small as you can for recording.
2015/01/24 10:43:34
Paul P
 
There's an ASIO driver for this card.  I'd use that and forget about ASIO4All (which is just a wrapper for the WDM driver to make it look like ASIO so there's no benefit).  If this is a very recent card, it may take a driver update or two to get it working properly, like most things these days.
 
Interesting that Creative is claiming 1ms latency for the card.
 
FWIW, I have a Soundblaster Titanium HD card with ASIO driver which works absolutely fine with X3P.  I see that 1ms is also claimed for this card but I get nowhere near that.
 
I wouldn't give up on your card just yet.
 
EDIT :  the 0 latency is only for monitoring the input before it goes into the computer.
So no effects can be added while recording (at that latency).
2015/01/24 10:50:50
DaveG74
Paul P
 
There's an ASIO driver for this card.  I'd use that and forget about ASIO4All (which is just a wrapper for the WDM driver to make it look like ASIO so there's no benefit).  If this is a very recent card, it may take a driver update or two to get it working properly, like most things these days.
 
Interesting that Creative is claiming 1ms latency for the card.
 
FWIW, I have a Soundblaster Titanium HD card with ASIO driver which works absolutely fine with X3P.  I see that 1ms is also claimed for this card but I get nowhere near that.
 
I wouldn't give up on your card just yet.



It would appear, from the center of this page:
http://www.soundblaster.com/products/sound-blaster-z.aspx#features
[ASIO] Pristine audio recordings with ultra low latency
 
Well...that description just like the work I'm/we're doing!
 
The ASIO4ALL driver only allows me down to a buffer of 200 or whatever. And if the Nissan Z has an ASIO driver, I would think that it would've been installed among my others. Strangely, I cannot find that driver in a search.
 
I have the card packaged up and ready to be shipped back. Creative's driver installation/setup wizard is a mess anyway and very convoluted.
2015/01/24 11:04:36
Paul P
 
Had you installed the latest driver ?
 
If you're in a position to return it for something more studio-oriented then by all means that's the best route.
Take your time researching a new interface though.  The sound will be similar between models at a price point, but the options/controls are different.
 
2015/01/24 11:52:48
Sanderxpander
You're not doing audio recording. You're doing midi recording and live playing of a software instrument. So the blurb doesn't actually apply to what you're doing. Soundblasters aren't made for this kind of thing, though sometimes you can get lucky. Use its own ASIO driver and see what happens.
2015/01/25 18:40:28
Splat
Don't use ASIO4ALL use ASIO for drivers.
 
"Pristine audio recordings with ultra low latency"
 
What you probably have is more of a HiFi/gamers card rather than a card suitable for home recording. Dump it and buy something like a Focusrite Scarlet I suggest.
 
2016/07/25 02:09:11
oceanskate7
"I don't recommend a Sound Blaster for DAW work."  AND " I see that 1ms is also claimed for this card but I get nowhere near that." AND "A little research into recording with DAWs would go a long way, Mr. Grundberg"
 
These 3 comments suggesting against SB, and one suggesting the OP to do just "A little research", when these are the same parroted comments I've noticed over the last 15 years+ in an ever changing line of offerings.  The sentiment made me want to comment just to straighten out what I see as a percentage of people who keep "rubber stamping" to not use SB in a DAW year after year, even though A 2010+ card is so different than say a 1995, 2000, or 2007 card etc.
 
When SB isn't working in a system, I can count on forum members to show up with several one sentence remarks saying not to use SB, when I, and many others are likely getting lower latency on some SB card versions than a lot of posters, likely getting 5-10 times the lowest rate possible they are getting, or yes, I'm saying 1/2 ms one direction, or 1ms round trip.  I've also gotten .8ms before round trip.  I can actually comfortably sing live (without direct monitoring) right into sonar using ANY effect I like, and at 1ms it feels live, with a few tracks.  I'm not trying to start a war.  I want to help, but I think some of the attitudes need to go, and a better understanding is line for newer Sound Blaster cards, on high end systems that are achieving better than some of the ultra pro solutions costing hundreds (not always of course).  Also there's plenty of threads where other cards are having all the same troubles.  It troubles me to read that and was tempted to make a video (may still do it), to show what is possible, except someone in our family is very ill, and I'm switching things around, and having issues with an SSD and little time.  I may still do it as one install on an SSD seems to be getting this with Sonar Producer X3e in 32bit Windows 7 (patched).  I'm sure there are people with configurations that are just not doing the trick, but this is also true of many other cards or USB setups etc.  And I get to easily keep windows sound going, and with a special program can even record youtube videos direct into Sonar, or record Sonar out to windows.  Not to say it can't be done with other cards.   Just saying, SB's can keep up just fine.
 
That said, I have the Sound Blaster Titanium HD, and with Sonar X3e Producer and I'm getting, at best, 1/2 ms each way, by setting to 1ms, and sample rate of 88200 and 96000.  No crackles or pops.  I achieved this at 44100 at some point too, but trying to remember what I did.  This is not with one track and one effect or soft synth either. The problem is understanding, and there are so many settings, I have obtained this several times, even with a good amount of plugins.  But some things alter it, like what plugin I use, or the master clock, or the way it's configured in windows itself, which inputs/outputs and more.  I got 1ms round trip and had several tracks like about 5-8 or so running CA-2A, BBE sonic maximizer, CW TTS 1, EQ's going etc, TH2 Producer, Slate virtual tape, and regular audio on an Asus i7 4770k at 4.5ghz and fast ram, with this SB card.  So it's not a LIE.  But make a few wrong settings, and it all changes.  So people are likely getting different results here.  Maybe I should post my exact settings sometime.  I also can record in WDM/KS at 4-5ms, but prefer starting with ASIO at 1ms and winding up with 4-5 ms, then winding up with 10 or over.
 
As I started getting upwards of 4 or 5 tracks and loaded them up with multiple plugins in each rack, moog synthesizer (Yes, it was going), it was still good, but nearing the point of crackling.  As my project grew, I had to then either freeze, or change to 2ms, then 4ms, and sometimes 5-7ms, but usually not.  Had they been more like pure audio tracks, I could have likely gotten 16 tracks at 1ms-2ms.  Funny thing is when I did a re-install to another SSD and did my best to set things right, I had forgotten some little things, and did NOT get the same results, but close. I'm still tweaking it and struggling, proving to me settings matter!  Yet I still have a backup of the original. The most amazing thing (to me) I did was for fun to remix the original real 24 multi-track (21 tracks) of Madonna's "Lucky Star", and I needed some compressors, a bit of tape saturation emulation (could have used perhaps other plugins, but this worked), a touch of reverb on some things, EQ, BBE other various.  And wanted to make it sound like the original for a game.  At first it sounded really close, then I got lucky, and now it's so close, it sounds so much the same as the original, it's hard to discern differences in mix and dynamics/punch etc.  However I couldn't pull off 1ms with 21 tracks and that much going on. 
 
But 4ms or 5ms and 21 real audio tracks running plus a bunch of FX isn't shabby.  If I'm wrong it was no more than 5 or 7, but I feel fairly sure I was at 4-5.   That is astounding for the ever disliked Sound Blaster.  But what bugs me is it's elusive on large numbers of tracks and that was my complaint, until I saw others getting worse results than me.  I have no problems getting some mixes with 8 or so channels and effects at under 4ms and sometimes 1-2ms round trip.  Sometimes it's true, it does not work out as well.  But the new SB cards, when everything is set right, and you have a beast of a CPU, and use the right drivers, it really can achieve very low latency.  I hope this helps some realize that SB's best cards have some pretty fast DSP hardware on them.  I'm still experimenting and learning, and also curious what I might obtain with a different card.  But not sure if I will beat the results I've obtained.  And not everyone is going to get the exact same results unless they have the exact same hardware or better.  I hope this helps open some people's eyes that SB shouldn't be simply tossed out, but a better look needs to be taken, IMO. 
2016/07/25 04:05:11
azslow3
It is possible to get good latency even with 10 years old card (I have PCI X-Fi). And I believe newer cards are better shielded and no longer produce helicopter noise. I also hope the "mixing console" is better (since you mention its DSP).
 
So in general Sound Blaster Titanium HD is 2x2 PCIe audio interface without pre-amps, with ASIO driver and low latency.
 
Your major point was low latency. But when this topic make any sense? When you need low latency? In practice, you need it when you record guitar with software based amp or record voice with software monitoring. For MIDI based recording (except drums) rather big latency is still "auto-compensated" inside our brain, body knows that between your decision to do something by hands and getting the sound from the result can take a while (unlike voice, since it is produced very close to our build-in "mics"). For mixing, there is no difference between 1ms and 50ms and once playback is started, 200+ms are not important (some mastering plug-ins, like latest Cakewalk LP, have 750+ms latency!).
 
For voice and guitar 1ms will be perfect! But how to connect them to SB? You need external pre-amp then. I mean you have to buy SB + pre-amp. The solution is for desktop only (PCIe). No longer cheap. And you still do not have spare inputs. For beginners that is too complicated (vs an USB bus powered interface with pre-amps, for the same money) for "pro" that is too limiting (2x2, no TRS/XLR).
 
About your "0.5ms RTT":
a) how have you measured it?
b) I am glad your computer can handle 96kHz/24bit with buffer size 32, under Windows, with DAW and effects. Somehow for most other users that does not work (note that is audio interface unrelated).
2016/07/25 07:44:37
chuckebaby
oceanskate7
When SB isn't working in a system, I can count on forum members to show up with several one sentence remarks saying not to use SB, when I, and many others are likely getting lower latency on some SB card versions than a lot of posters, likely getting 5-10 times the lowest rate possible they are getting, or yes, I'm saying 1/2 ms one direction, or 1ms round trip.  I've also gotten .8ms before round trip. 

 
Early on I had the unpleasant and unfortunate experience of using a soundblaster soundcard on Windows XP.
Soundblasters are great for gaming, listening, exc but if your doing even simple DAW work, a soundblaster can not keep up unless your using ASIO4ALL.
I highly discourage anyone from using ASIO4ALL.
and I don't believe it is just (as you say) a selected handful of "Parroted responses".
ASIO4ALL can become very unstable. trust me I know, ive used in in a pinch.
I also used to suggest it. I don't anymore. ive just seen to many conflicts, problems and issues that lead users in a circle thinking there is something wrong with their system.
 
you want to praise soundblaster and use it...be my guest.
2016/07/25 09:00:04
Sanderxpander
Personally I have had some very bad experiences with both Soundblasters and ASIO4ALL. I'm sure some cards can work well in some configurations but they're undeniably designed for a different purpose.

That said, I'm still puzzled by the OP's remark that he only gets latency "on playback"?! That means he can record just fine but after playing it back... The instruments are out of sync or something? He says there is no audio in the project. Latency compared to what?
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