Hopefully someone can help me understand where my routing is going wrong in the following scenario:
 
I have a project which contains nothing but MIDI tracks inside of track folders.  Seven MIDI tracks per folder, and three folders (so, 21 MIDI tracks).  Each folder is a different "Song" with all of its MIDI tracks routed along different MIDI channels out to my external arranger keyboard, which then plays the sounds back into the audio input of my audio/MIDI interface (Edirol UA-25EX).  Sonar then routes that audio out to the UA25-EX's audio outputs, out to my speakers, and I hear everything just fine.
 
Problem is, sometimes when the music gets a bit too loud overall, I want to turn the whole mix down a little.  Well, for the life of me, I can't seem to find a way to do that from within my Sonar project.  If I go to Console View, I can see the individual MIDI track faders and one "UA25EX OUT" fader with the word "MASTER" above the slider, but only the individual MIDI tracks' volume sliders have any effect on volume.  The main "UA25EX OUT" fader (actually a dual fader, right and left, both RED) doesn't affect volume in any way whatsoever.
 
Meanwhile, another project with just a single soft synth inserted displays a single BLUE fader in both the Console View and the Inspector, labeled "UA25EX OUT" but it also has a field below that, which says "MASTER", and under that, "A".  And that fader does affect the overall volume in that project.  Also, if (in Console View, still in the second project) I click on the field under "UA25EX OUT" which says "MASTER", all of a sudden the dual red fader (which was ineffective in the other project) suddenly appears in the inspector, with its "UA25EX OUT" at the bottom and "MASTER" at the top.  But this time, in this project, these dual red faders (just like the single blue one next to it) do affect the overall volume.
 
So, what's going on in the first project that's preventing me from being able to easily control global volume from one slider (or one dual set) like in the second project?  Thanks for any insights.
 
Sonar X3e (build 352) x64, Windows 7 x64
 
- Bob K.

The UA25EX Out is an audio output. If you have the audio from your keyboard plugged into the interface, that doesn't mean SONAR can 'hear' it; you would need audio tracks set to the Edirol for input and routed to the UA25EX Out, or better still, to a bus which is then routed to the Ed.
To the soft synth song: which synth are you using? It's possible that all of the MIDI tracks are going to that synth, thus to it's audio output which can be adjusted by the fader.
I usually turn down the volume on my keyboard in that situation.

Hi, Greg.  The synth in the second project is Zebra2, but I've swapped out numerous synths in that one (Omnisphere, Hive, others) and you're right, that's just what I have - a MIDI track outputting to the synth, and its single blue audio fader indeed controlling its volume.
 
So I did a little test in the "problem" project (the all-MIDI one) and inserted an audio track, to see if Sonar was indeed "hearing" the keyboard, as you said.  I armed it for Record, hit Record, and played some notes on the keyboard.  And yes, Sonar heard it and recorded it.  I then put the newly recorded track into solo and looped it, then went to Console View to mess with the [heretofore impotent] dual red fader, and yes, it now changes the volume of the recorded audio just fine.
 
So then I thought it must just be an inability to control the volume of live, incoming audio from the keyboard (as opposed to what's already been recorded to an audio track).  But that's not it either, as shown by my then playing an audio file that's actually stored on the keyboard itself, and Sonar's fader successfully adjusted the volume of my speakers just fine while it (Sonar) was merely "listening" to the live audio being initiated by the keyboard.
 
So by that process of elimination, it appears that the only time Sonar's "main" volume fader is becoming impotent to control the external keyboard's volume (as heard through my speakers) is when the keyboard's audio is being triggered by MIDI tracks within Sonar.  Yet that's precisely what I need it to do.
 
<<pondering>>...

I would simply create your own MASTER BUS and route all of your tracks to this MASTER BUS before it hits your outputs

I think it is good practice to leave your actual output levels at unity (0) and make volume adjustments via tracks, busses and the volume on your monitoring

You could "aux" tracks within your folders so you can route all of your tracks to this "aux track", which will give you a single level fader per folder - then route the aux track to your new MASTER BUS, which will give you overall control

This will achieve what you want so you can carry on working whilst you understand the other issue

BoydieI would simply create your own MASTER BUS and route all of your tracks to this MASTER BUS before it hits your outputs...  ...You could "aux" tracks within your folders so you can route all of your tracks to this "aux track", which will give you a single level fader per folder...

Hi Boydie.  Aren't busses and auxes strictly an audio thing?  All my tracks are MIDI.
 
Are you saying I should create an audio track for each folder, then record the audio that the MIDI tracks make the keyboard play, and then route all these recorded audio tracks to a bus?

huffy

BoydieI would simply create your own MASTER BUS and route all of your tracks to this MASTER BUS before it hits your outputs...  ...You could "aux" tracks within your folders so you can route all of your tracks to this "aux track", which will give you a single level fader per folder...

Hi Boydie.  Aren't busses and auxes strictly an audio thing?  All my tracks are MIDI.
 
Are you saying I should create an audio track for each folder, then record the audio that the MIDI tracks make the keyboard play, and then route all these recorded audio tracks to a bus?

not at all. I typicallt take all my midi drum tracks and route them to a drum bus which is feed to the master.
then I create a send off each midi drum track (kit piece) to another bus and run parallel compression.
 
if you get in to groups, your instruments.
all bass sounding instruments to one bus, all solo instruments to another bus, exc. but still there are no rules.
I use buses to control volume during mixing and to make life easier for myself. (solo/mute.)
 

I noticed the UA25EX has a direct monitor - ensure it's off or you'll hear your keyboard regardless of the Sonar master fader.

 
 
 

chuckebabyI typicallt take all my midi drum tracks and route them to a drum bus which is feed to the master.  then I create a send off each midi drum track (kit piece) to another bus and run parallel compression.
...if you get in to groups, your instruments.  all bass sounding instruments to one bus, all solo instruments to another bus, exc.

 
Hi Chuck.  Tell me, is your actual drum audio coming from an external sound module like I'm trying to do?, or from a software drum plugin - in other words, from an "Instrument Track", which I already established (in my second post) that I can control now just fine (Zebra2, etc.)?  Because if you are using an external module, I sure would like to know how you're setting up these MIDI busses you're talking about.  If all my MIDI tracks were simply parts of Instrument Tracks linked to internal software modules (e.g., Cakewalk TTS-1), I'd have no problem setting up such busses for these all to go to.  But external sound modules are a different animal, apparently.
 
Don't get me wrong - what you're suggesting sounds fabulous, but, when I try to create such a bus, (bottom pane, right-click, Insert Stereo Bus), the only options my MIDI tracks [still] give me (in their Output field) are:
 
1-2-UA-25EX
New Drum Map
Drum Map Manager
 
In other words, nothing about the newly created bus, which, according to what you seem to be saying, I should now be able to send, say, all of my bass MIDI tracks to.
 
Plus, in numerous previous forum discussions, I see people routinely saying things like "No, MIDI tracks cannot be routed to a bus" and "...you don't want to send MIDI tracks to a bus; you want to send the audio from a MIDI synth to the bus.  The MIDI data can't go to a bus." (emphasis mine) All of these were taken from the following thread:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com...1-Studio-m2859221.aspx
 
Am I still misunderstanding something fundamental?
 
 
 
 

First of all I think SuperG has nailed your original issue - make sure any direct monitoring is turned off

I had a similar issue where I thought all amp sims were rubbish - until Imrealised Imhad direct monitoring turned on so was always hearing the (very loud) direct input of the guitar, which drowned out the amp sim!!!

With regard to your routing, I had forgotten you were using the external keyboard as the sound source

Are you connecting this as a stereo output from your keyboard to a stereo input in to your PC?

SuperGI noticed the UA25EX has a direct monitor - ensure it's off or you'll hear your keyboard regardless of the Sonar master fader.

BINGO!  Hey there SuperG!  Well, last night I had tried turning the Direct Monitor knob all the way down (just brainstorming/twiddling), but that resulted in the speakers going completely silent, so I abandoned that line of thinking.  But your comment today made me revisit the idea, and what I found was that I've apparently been listening to only the Direct Monitoring all this time!  I guess I had a misunderstanding of what Direct Monitor was.  It apparently takes the external unit's audio (in my case, my keyboard) and passes it directly to the speakers, giving Sonar a big "F you!".  So it's essentially a direct, private "volume conversation" between the keyboard and the speakers, over which Sonar has no say at all, except via the MIDI tracks' data, which are all pre-audio.
 
So at that point, with Direct Monitor off, and no sound currently coming from the speakers despite my MIDI tracks currently playing a loop, I thought 'Okay, so what do I do now from within Sonar in order to get sound'. 
Well, up until now, simply adding an audio track to this all-MIDI project had never helped me get control over the volume.  But by noodling around a little, I suddenly stumbled upon why:
 
Apparently, when you add an audio track, its Input Echo button is set to OFF by default, and you have to actually turn it ON to hear from your external gear.  Well, that's all I needed to do at this point!  I now have an external keyboard being triggered by Sonar MIDI tracks, but whose overall volume I can now control from one Sonar audio fader!  Yeeesssss!!
 

BoydieI had a similar issue where I thought all amp sims were rubbish - until Imrealised Imhad direct monitoring turned on so was always hearing the (very loud) direct input of the guitar, which drowned out the amp sim!!!

 
Yes!!  In this project of mine, whenever I would record onto a newly-added audio track, the sound sometimes became "doubled", like, really loud and flamming/phasing, until I stopped recording and soloed the audio track. Well, in those cases, I must've had both Direct Monitor on AND Sonar's audio track's Input Echo on before hitting record.  So I actually had two streams of audio being sent to the speakers in those instances - causing all the flamming/doubling.
 
So, in conclusion, and for future strugglers, we now know that an "all MIDI" project is not really what you want in this case (i.e., if you want a Sonar MIDI project to be able to control your external gear's audio volume through your speakers).  You need to make sure you have any kind of Direct Monitoring turned OFF, and at least one audio track in Sonar, with its Input Echo set to ON.
 
Anyway, sorry guys.  I probably knew this at some point, but I go for such long periods NOT working on music (like, 4 - 5 year periods), I sometimes forget the basics. 
 
Thanks for your help.  It's been a pleasure directly monitoring your input.
 
- Bob K.