• SONAR
  • Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ? (p.4)
2016/06/28 02:48:39
kennywtelejazz
brundlefly
kennywtelejazz
Just opened up Melodyne for the first time in over 2 years and I'm absolutely lost and confused ...
The only thing I have ever done with Melodyne was to use the ARA conversion in SONAR by sliding a monophonic guitar or bass audio track over to a midi track to have it converted over to midi...
Any pointers on where I can find a way to learn how to do what you are suggesting me to do in Melodyne ?
 

 
Hi Kenny. I had never used Melodyne's stretching, either, but just checked, and if you right-click a Melodyne clip after enabling the Region FX, you can choose Region FX > Melodyne > Follow Host Tempo. Then just change the project tempo. And like Audiosnap, after you've got the project back to the original tempo, you can do the same to disable it on the original clips.
 
I'm going to do some quick listening tests and see how it compares to online and offline rendering with Audiosnap.




Thank You Dave , I'm gonna try that out ..just the way you said
On my own ( before this post of yours came up online ) I did get as far as enabling the Region FX , Melodyne  did a conversion,since  I hadn't change the projects tempo ..I think that's what made me feel stuck .... 
 
for anyone that is interested ,  here's an mp 3 audio example of what I have been trying to do ....
on this clip I'm playing my 8 string guitar ...been using an 8 string guitar for less than 2 months
there are no overdub / punch ins ...this is what I played ...
disclaimer , the clip is a work file so it's totally dry using a static drum beat ...the guitar is is pretty dry and non e q 'ed ...
this clip is in 3 sections , the first section is the target / converted tempo , the second section is the tempo I played at originally ,  the 3 rd section is an exact  repeat of the target tempo ...
 
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=13405315
 
all the best ,
 
Kenny
 
2016/06/28 03:00:09
brundlefly
See the edit to my previous post for my verdict on Melodyne: Works and sounds great on a single track; not so great on a whole project.
2016/06/28 03:06:45
brundlefly
kennywtelejazz
or anyone that is interested ,  here's an mp 3 audio example of what I have been trying to do ....
on this clip I'm playing my 8 string guitar ...been using an 8 string guitar for less than 2 months
there are no overdub / punch ins ...this is what I played ...



Yeah, Baby! Funkingruvin! Nice one, Kenny. Worth the effort. Keep at it. Three thumbs up. 
2016/06/28 05:47:23
chuckebaby
brundlefly
kennywtelejazz
or anyone that is interested ,  here's an mp 3 audio example of what I have been trying to do ....
on this clip I'm playing my 8 string guitar ...been using an 8 string guitar for less than 2 months
there are no overdub / punch ins ...this is what I played ...



Yeah, Baby! Funkingruvin! Nice one, Kenny. Worth the effort. Keep at it. Three thumbs up. 


+1
that groove is awesome.
2016/06/28 22:58:58
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
brundlefly
EDIT: Quickie verdict: Melodyne is much more transparent than any Audiosnap/Izotope algorithm, especially when lowering tempo. Two thumbs up for quality.   However... it took much more time (like 10 minutes vs. 10-20 seconds for Audiosnap!) to enable the Region FX on all the clips in a sizable project, even though I selected and processed them all at once as I would do with Audiosnap. I've never heard so much noise for so long from a hard drive in my life!  And even before I enabled Follow Project or changed the tempo, I gave the project a listen, and it had all kinds of sync problems, artifacts, silent clips or sections of clips, etc. So as far as I'm concerned, Melodyne's out for temporarily altering the tempo of a big project.
 
Based on that, I would say use Audiosnap - Clip Follows Project to slow down the existing tracks while you record the new on, but use Melodyne to speed up the new track when restoring the project to the original tempo.




Using melodyne on all the clips of a large project would consume a lot of CPU and memory since it does onset, tempo and pitch analysis. That's not the recommended use case. If you want to stretch a few clips however you can certainly do so and as you found the quality is better than AS rendering. Also it will render the stretches in realtime at very high quality.
2016/06/29 09:05:00
jackroller
Sonar seems to be severely behind the times when it comes to warping.  Audiosnap and Loop Constructor are clumsy and not very intuitive.  Ableton's warping features are much better.
2016/06/29 10:13:55
Anderton
Ableton's Complex warping algorithm, which is in the Standard and Suite versions, does indeed have comprehensive warping options. However with SONAR, Melodyne does an excellent job and the integration with SONAR via ARA is a plus. SONAR takes a more a la carte approach than many other programs, so it's not surprising that SONAR's ongoing partnership with Celemony is advancing SONAR's warp capabilities; there's no need for Cakewalk to re-invent the wheel, and people who don't need advanced warping don't have to pay for having it incorporated in the program. (Of course the downside of Live's Complex algorithm, or any stretch algorithm that maintains pitch while changing length, is artifacts; this is why many people use Live's re-pitch mode, even though pitch and time then become interdependent.)
 
The biggest problem with most warping is that although you can take something played freely and conform it to a tempo, you can't conform a tempo to something played freely except in SONAR and Studio One. This is because both of them have made it a priority to integrate ARA.
 
As to "clumsy and unintuitive," I'd hang that label on AudioSnap but not the Loop Construction window. If you want a simple solution to stretch something into a file capable of being looped, slip+stretch with DSP or using Melodyne are fast and efficient. However, the Loop Constructor has very deep and capable functionality. The price of that depth is it's necessary to study how it works. Once you do, it's pretty obvious. It certainly isn't any more complex that the way you create stretchable, real-time key-mappable loops in Sony Acid or with the Apple Loops SDK, and the Loop Construction window can also do Ableton's re-pitch functionality.
 
 
2016/06/29 10:38:04
brundlefly
I've never used Ableton, so I Googled up a warping tutorial on Youtube. The demo linked below (by a 'certified Ableton trainer') does not seem conceptually that different from SONAR, and some operations are decidedly more fiddly than SONAR/Audiosnap. Also, I noted that he mentions several caveats and special cases. This also is no different from Audiosnap. It's a tool, not a magic wand, and works best in the hands of an experienced user.
 
     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsHnZUGl8yY
 
This is a different use case from the current thread. In this case, he's just aligning the project tempo to a single fixed-tempo clip (not really what I would call 'warping', but okay). In SONAR, I would have used Set Measure/Beat At Now, and had a typical 4-minute song locked in a minute or two - no need to ever look at or mess with beat markers or tap a tempo or any of that - just listen, tab to transients, and tell SONAR where the starting beat and one other should fall in the timeline.
2016/06/29 11:50:10
jackroller
Craig, thank you for that explanation.  I had been misunderstanding how to use the Loop Construction view for some time, but after watching the tutorial again things are making much more sense to me.  It's much easier to use than I originally thought.  :)

Anderton
you can't conform a tempo to something played freely except in SONAR and Studio One.


Would you expand on this a little?  That's new to me.
2016/06/29 12:13:24
Anderton
brundlefly
I've never used Ableton, so I Googled up a warping tutorial on Youtube. The demo linked below (by a 'certified Ableton trainer') does not seem conceptually that different from SONAR, and some operations are decidedly more fiddly than SONAR/Audiosnap.



That's because he's using the Beats warping algorithm, which is as you describe and very much like AudioSnap. However, the higher-level versions of Live now include a "Complex" warping algorithm. You can bring in something like a 3-minute pop song from the 60s that was not cut to a click, and end up with it conformed to tempo with very little effort. Traktor doesn't do warping, so I use Live's Complex algorithm to prep files for use with it when DJing. Yes there are artifacts, but they're less important in a DJ context than they would be in a high-fidelity SONAR project.
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