Hi, guys.
 
So I was just flipping through Scott Garrigus' Sonar X3 Power! book, and noticed a line that I hadn't picked up on before, explaining that, when automating, if you create a volume envelope on a track, it will override any pre-existing clip gain envelopes on that track...
 
I've just recently spent a good amount of time going through some vocal tracks and adjusting clip gain (via envelopes) to get clip levels into a closer ballpark with each other (before moving on to compression). But if I now apply volume automation during the course of mixing, all of those clip gain adjustments will be ignored? Meaning that if I want to adjust the volume of an entire verse, for instance, that any of the clip gain adjustments I made to get certain phrases more reigned in will in essence be voided, and the verse will be uneven with its dynamics again, just as if it were the raw, untouched clips?
 
If this is so, how can I get around it and maintain my clip gain adjustments while still being able to utilize new volume envelopes? Would bouncing to clips retain all of the adjustments and get me where I want to be? Or is there another solution?
 
Thanks in advance for any advice!
 
 
Sonar X3e Producer
Win 7 64-bit

dimelives1
I've just recently spent a good amount of time going through some vocal tracks and adjusting clip gain (via envelopes) to get clip levels into a closer ballpark with each other (before moving on to compression). But if I now apply volume automation during the course of mixing, all of those clip gain adjustments will be ignored?

No worries, it doesn't do that! Think of track automation as a "master volume control." Suppose with clip automation, one clip is softer than the other one. Now you use track automation to raise the level of the track where those clips are. Both clips will now be louder, but have the same relationship compared to each other.
 
Tweak away on those without fear.

Thanks for the reply, Craig. So, was the passage in Scott's book incorrect then? Here's the exact quote:
 
"ENVELOPE OVERRIDE: If you have clip-based Gain or Pan envelopes in a track, and you later create track-based envelopes for Volume or Pan, the track envelopes will override the clip envelopes during playback. The clip envelopes will still exist, but SONAR will ignore them."

Workaround:
Send clip gained envelope vocal to another buss or aux>>>> Do your volume automation on the new buss or aux.

dimelives1
Thanks for the reply, Craig. So, was the passage in Scott's book incorrect then? Here's the exact quote:
 
"ENVELOPE OVERRIDE: If you have clip-based Gain or Pan envelopes in a track, and you later create track-based envelopes for Volume or Pan, the track envelopes will override the clip envelopes during playback. The clip envelopes will still exist, but SONAR will ignore them."

I just tested with Platinum and X3 to make sure I'm not crazy (at least not about this), and the automation works as I described. 

If I read something like that in the manual or a reference guide, the first thing I would do is test it. I have learned a lot by performing small tests based on questions about what I have read. Sometimes tests confirm unexpected behavior described in text sometimes not. I go by experience.

KingsMix
 
Workaround:
Send clip gained envelope vocal to another buss or aux>>>> Do your volume automation on the new buss or aux.

Yep. That's exactly what I thought of.
 
However, I can confirm what Craig is saying, Trk Vol Automation does not over-ride your adjusted clip gains.
 
I proved it doing what scook suggested.

Before routing to an aux track, if I needed an alternate/additional way to add volume automation to a track, I would insert an empty FX chain in the PC/FX Rack and automate it. Can have as many as needed anywhere in the PC/FX Rack.

Anderton
I just tested with Platinum and X3 to make sure I'm not crazy (at least not about this), and the automation works as I described. 

 
Thanks, Craig. I was finally able to test it myself as well, and you are correct; any adjustments made to clip gain were maintained, even when drawing volume envelopes in a variety of ways.
 
So Mr. Garrigus, you've got some 'splainin' to do for making me nervous
 
I wonder if Scott might have misconstrued this little blurb in the Sonar Help file:
 
"You can create automation envelopes for tracks, buses, clips and plug-ins. Drawing an envelope overwrites any preexisting envelope for the same parameter that occurs at the same time in the same track or bus."
 
But I believe this is referring only to EXACT same envelope parameters (i.e. one volume envelope and another volume envelope, not a volume envelope and a gain envelope).
 
On a side note, I also confirmed my proposed workaround of bouncing to clips to maintain the clip gain adjustments (and slip-fades) and move on to volume automation without fear, if such a workaround had been needed. Flattening the comp works for it too, if comping instances are involved (which, in my case, they are).
 
 

scook
If I read something like that in the manual or a reference guide, the first thing I would do is test it. I have learned a lot by performing small tests based on questions about what I have read. Sometimes tests confirm unexpected behavior described in text sometimes not. I go by experience.

 
Sorry, scook, I couldn't go into my DAW at the time I posted the question, and it's also one of those things that might've been tricky to get reliable results if I didn't know how to test it properly, so I wanted to reach out to more experienced minds.

II can appreciate not being near a DAW while reading a book but at least in my case, I will remember better and have more confidence in the results, if I actually perform experiments. Sometimes the act of crafting an experiment is a learning experience itself.
 
If I wanted to test this I would have created a new project, added any wave file, messed with clip and track envelopes at extreme settings. It should be easy to hear if extreme clip settings are ignored when a track envelope exists.