• SONAR
  • Is Sonar Platinum Too Much for A Beginner? (p.6)
2016/06/07 19:39:32
tlw
husker
I do understand the importance of having a good computer to run the DAW. I build my own computers (don't judge), so that will generally not be an issue.


Unfortunately there's a bit more to building a good Windows PC DAW than sheer speed and processing power. Very often Windows-based wifi and low audio latency don't go hand in hand for example (though ethernet is generally less troublesome). Low latency audio (around 10-12 milliseconds or less between an audio signal going into an interface, the DAW processing it and it emerging as audio again) is asking Windows and the hardware to do things it's designers didn't always pay as much attention to as we might like. Power saving settings that most PC users, including gamers, would never notice at all can bring things to a popping and crackling halt.

Then there's keeping the mechanical noise of the PC down, especially if you need to use microphones anywhere near it.

Despite all that, a good DAW can be built without too much difficulty, I suggest browsing the "computers" part of the forum for some pointers, and we have some good and experienced commercial DAW builders around if you decide to look for a pre-built and configured system.

husker
My current rig is an overclocked Core I7 with 32 GB of RAM. I'll probably build another computer at Christmas, due to my other hobby (Flight Simulations, again, please don't judge). I'm a PC (and Android) guy, so Ipads and Macs do not interest me.


As it happens I'm a *nix/OS X sort of person by inclination and the only PC we have around is the (currently a bit poorly) one that runs Sonar :-) My "other DAW" is Logic Pro. Which at times makes me tear out what's left of my hair at least as much as Sonar ever has. And Sonar is far better documented and, in my opinion, has a better and more useful forum.

husker
What everyone relayed about the Artist, Pro, and Platinum sharing the same basic characterstics makes sense. On that note, perhaps SPLAT is the way to go. I have downloaded and played with all the trials, but again, I don't really know which one would "fit" my workflow. (TBH, I'm not even sure what that means.) I do like the look and feel of the Sonar and Studio One products better than Reaper.


Think of "workflow" like this. On your right is a big Moog Modular. Every function has a dedicated control and every control has a single function. On your left a workstation keyboard with a display and relatively few controls each carrying out many functions depending where you are in the operating system. The person who finds the Moog fits them best might find the workstation impenetrable, while someone else finds the workstation logical and straightforward but the Moog a mess of knobs and wires.

But in the end the Moog and workstation do the same thing - they make music.
 
husker
I'm more interested in syntheizers and sounds now. I've thought about a Midi controller only, but I do want the flexibility to just turn it on and play, and not need to worry about the computer and DAW. So I have rather limited myself to keyboard workstations.


It still might be worth your while considering adding a small 25 to 37 key controller with a faster synth action and aftertouch as well. But I'm not a pianist, so feel free to disagree.

Or even one of the smaller analogue monosynths like the Arturia Brutes, MS-20 etc.

husker
 A note on the interfaces. I posted a similar question on the Homerecording BBS, but got VERY confused on the answers. Both the FA-08 and MOX8 have built in audio interfaces. However, everyone seemed to think that buying an external interface (like the Komplete Audio) was better due to Latency.


There are two different issues, both confusingly called "latency" in DAWs. Audio latency, which is where the interface and its drivers come into play is basically how long it takes audio to get converted to digital 1s and 0s or vice versa. When you play a software synth it's the delay between pressing the key and a sound emerging from the speakers. The delay is caused by the time it takes for the DAW to process the audio. If you want to monitor an audio source you are recording through the DAW (so you hear any applied effects while recording) latency is how long it takes the audio to enter the DAW, get processed and sent out again to the monitors or headphones.

It's the bane of computer audio. To get audio latency acceptably low as possible and keep the DAW working stably what are known as "ASIO drivers" which provide low latency and let you configure it are usually required. Most audio interface manufacturers supply dedicated ASIO drivers for their kit, but it has to be said that not all are created equal. The best way, I think, to shop for interfaces is to work out what inputs and outputs you think you need, add at least a couple more then see what's available and within your budget. And feel free to ask for opinions and suggestions before commiting yourself.

You can only use one interface at a time using ASIO by the way, unless the manufacturer has written their driver specifically to cater for more than one interface from the same manufacturer.

There's a driver that's sometimes recommended or advocated around the internet called ASIO4ALL. It's intended to let you try to use the PC's built-in sound-chip as if it has a dedicated ASIO driver. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't and it can be a beast of a thing to configure. It's particularly useful if you have a laptop PC and need to use the built-in audio rather than a proper interface. Other than that specific use, a proper ASIO driver from the interface manufacturer will 99.99999% of the time do a better job.

The other kind of latency is "delayed procedure calls" when Windows has to stop giving it's attention to the DAW software and give time to another process. Which has bad consequences for audio playback and recording if dpc latency is too high. Some PCs don't suffer much from it, others do and unless the DAW has been built by a capable specialist often it can only be diagnosed and (usually) sorted out once the PC is up and running.

husker
If I have an AI, I assume I connect both the lineouts and midi out of the keyboard into the Audio interface, as well as the monitors. In this configuration, I assume there is no need for a USB connection to the computer?


USB connections can be very useful. Often not so much for audio unless the instrument has very good ASIO drivers for its interface, but for MIDI. Every MIDI device plugged directly into a PC is identified by Windows as a seperate MIDI port (sometimes more than one). Sonar in turn uses those ports and you can set up which instrument (port) controls which MIDI track and vice versa very easily. Much easier than having several instruments connected by 5-pin DIN to a single MIDI interface or daisy-chaining MIDI gear.

Another thing USB is useful for is if a synth has a software editing programme available. If you want to program your own sounds then the instruments's interface becomes crucial and many don't have a particularly user-friendly display, use a few controls for lots of different functions or can involve a lot of "menu diving" to get to functions. Modern software editors can make that job much, much easier.
2016/06/07 19:41:22
AT
Hope this all isn't overwhelming.  Mostly, just try to have fun.
 
I'd go for an interface rather than running sound and recording through a workstation.  I like the Tascam units, and have the uh-7000 and the 20X20 (and an old TK Konnkek, and presonus).  TASCAM aren't the most lowest latency units but the sound is great (and superb w/ the 7000) and all the X by X series uses the same drivers and the team is now inhouse.  So the latency (how long it takes an external signal [either midi or audio] to get into SONAR and then stream out) should get better.  And PS, most workstations hook up by USB these days (and all the kind you use as an interface), while there are separate USB midi units w/ 5 pin hook up.  However, the 20 x 20 has regular midi in/outs, which is nice.  Something to consider, even tho it is usually only available on higher-priced units.  Most controllers use USB for midi in/out.  Trust me, you will want more than stereo in and out if you record audio.  Maybe not 8, but 4.
 
good hunting.
2016/06/07 20:07:34
filtersweep
Just gonna chime in again quickly. Remember that this great forum is very much DAW-centric. Everything said about a DAW being superior at what workstations can offer (sequencing most importantly) is absolutely true. But one thing no DAW is great at is firing up quickly and being in a place to hammer out a tune. That us the beauty of a wkstn or digital piano. Fact is that most nice digital pianos are as costly as many wkstns, so the added capabilities are really a nice bonus, if you will. For me, sometimes I feel like a DAW, sometimes I don`t. I don't think you would ever regret purchasing a wkstn or digital piano. On the other hand, if you just go with a controller, you might. 
2016/06/07 22:55:08
Markubl2
Ah,  I'll admit,  I am overwhelmed.  Very overwhelmed,  and right now we are just talking about connecting a simple workstation to a computer.  Perhaps I'll step back a little tonight and reassemble  some questions in a different way tomorrow morning.
Everybody has been very kind with their inputs.   I understand all of you could be doing other things,  crafting the next Wyld Stallyns record or something.   But each have of you has taken the time to help.   I've read every response several times.  Thank you. 
2016/06/07 23:16:43
abacab
I hear ya!  Best thing is to start out simple, and build up from there.  No need to over think it.  You already have a computer that should work just fine for a beginner DAW, if not more, with some tuning later.
 
Here's a plan to sleep on!
 
Get a good audio interface, one that you can grow into and hopefully won't need to replace soon. 
 
Get some good powered studio monitors.
 
Get a cheap USB MIDI controller keyboard to play around with the virtual instruments in your chosen DAW.
 
Hook it up and have fun :-)
 
You can always add more workstations, pianos, etc, later if you feel the need (or as your budget allows).  That's what the forums are for, LOL!!!
2016/06/08 00:05:23
denverdrummer
I think there is a danger with starting out in digital audio recording, in being presented with too many options.  Whatever product you choose, when you are learning, I suggest you start by using stock plugins.  90% of the time I am still using either ProChannel or Sonitus effects.
 
I think the problem especially with people in the ProTools world is what I call the "magic plugin" syndrome.  You get fed so much hype about using a certain plugin, and then you start making your mixes based on which plugin you're going to use on which channel.
 
Think about the history of recording.  A Studio would spend tens of thousands of dollars on a Neve console, it would never occur to them to go out and buy an SSL console to record a different track for an artist to color it differently.
 
If you're on a budget, my recommendation would be to go with Artist, and then you can upgrade later if there are features you want to get into.
 
Heck if you really want to save some bucks, Music Creator is a great little program for something like $50 bucks that will get you started, and if you want to make the jump to Sonar, it will be seamless, the workflow is nearly identical, but that's a very underrated program for a budget DAW.
2016/06/08 06:51:01
DrLumen
I can understand your concerns as you are at the foot of what appears to be a very large mountain. Once you hook up your first few pieces of gear it will be easier to understand. It's kinda like being read the NFL rule book. The game seems really complicated until you see or play it for a little while.
 
As a word of warning (perhaps that is too strong of a word) but you can expect some challenges. Getting everything to play nicely is sometimes a bit of a struggle. But, IMO, the rewards are worth the struggles. Case in point, I had a recent issue with the system not seeing my midi interface. Turned out to be the computer power save options were putting the USB ports to sleep and not waking them up when I started Sonar. It stemmed from my power save options getting changed by the Samsung SSD installer. Not a big deal in the end (no thousands of dollars wasted or needed) but it took some time to ferret out the issue.
 
In regards to what filtersweep was saying, I occasionally have the same desire to just play without having to start Sonar. If you shut down your computer it would take even longer to start (my Sonar system is on all the time anyway). Anyway, I have an old synth module (Dr Synth DS-330) that I got way before VSTI's were even a twinkle. With my particular midi interface (midisport) I can push the bypass button and the keyboard controiller and synth module are directly connected so I can tinker/play without starting Sonar. Probably not something you would want to duplicate but just to point out that there are different ways to skin a cat (as it were).
2016/06/08 06:56:53
azslow3
husker
Ah,  I'll admit,  I am overwhelmed.  Very overwhelmed,  and right now we are just talking about connecting a simple workstation to a computer.  Perhaps I'll step back a little tonight and reassemble  some questions in a different way tomorrow morning.
Everybody has been very kind with their inputs.   I understand all of you could be doing other things,  crafting the next Wyld Stallyns record or something.   But each have of you has taken the time to help.   I've read every response several times.  Thank you.

I can recommend to select some person of your choice from this thread participants and PM/Skype with him for details. There are quite some intersected answers with different opinions. In general I do not see "wrong" answers, but all people are different.
 
For your latest questions:
* you connect MOX with computer with USB cable, then:
a) (simplest) you use AUDIO interface in MOX (it has ASIO driver), also for MIDI. So, no future equipment.
b) you use MOX USB connection for MIDI only and connect MOX output with 2 TS/TRS (I have not digged the documentation deep, probably TS) cables into separate audio interface, then  connect the output of the interface
with monitors. For that you will need these TS/TRS 6.3mm (1/4'') cables. They are not included with MOX nor with the interface but any Music store has them. I would start with cheap till you understand the difference... There are Monster (in price) TS cables, primary for guitars. You do not need them.
 
More about cables: you will not notice the difference in sound using different cables (in case the cable is not broken). You can get some buzz/noise, it can come from the bad cable (broken) but it can be from some ground loop. In the second case, you can use a device like Behringer HD-400, but you do not need that in advance.
 
____
Simple approach: get MOX, Sonar Plat (with or without US-2X2, as you want) and near field monitors (check concrete monitors inputs and order corresponding cables) . Connect MOX with USB to PC with Sonar, output to monitors and start using the program. You will have MOX sounds, DimPro, Rapture, TruePiano, AD2, etc. as well as a huge set of FXes (EQ, compressors, shapers, delays, ...). It will take a while till you understand what you really have, but at some point you will understand what you still want in addition ;)
 
As was suggested already, to get extra software, check Sales board of this forum. All software goes on sale at least once per year and discounts are huge (up to 90%).
 
If monitors are not in your priority list, PC speakers or HIFI systems are ok for testing the sounds, but not for mixing. Studio headphones can help only a bit...
 
2016/06/08 07:09:15
Sanderxpander
What this thread shows best is that everyone has their preferences :)

Taking a step back is a good idea. The most important things you should ask yourself, in my opinion, are
1. What are you hoping to achieve recording wise - just your own noodling or also record vocals, drums, etc.
2. How do you write your music - do you mind a fair amount of beat programming, etc, or do you prefer playing piano and letting the music take you wherever? This is a workflow question.

I think workstations are nearly obsolete in a pro environment except for sketches, but I know plenty of guys who like to compose on one for the immediacy it gives. Find a sound, play it, get inspired, hit rec, find the next sound, etc.

All the interface stuff and which DAW to pick is kinda secondary, really. Plenty of interfaces work fine, some workstation/USB based interfaces work fine, and essentially most DAWs are interchangeable (yes I said it). If you go with a DAW, the best suggestion I can give is to really learn the one you pick. As a software professional, I'm sure you can appreciate that a program works best when the user knows where to look and what to click.
2016/06/08 16:24:18
Markubl2
OK.  I've stepped back and taken a deep breath and got my thoughts together.
 
My goal - I want to have a keyboard with a ton of sounds that I can just boot up and play without turning on the computer. I also want to be able to record things into a DAW that I play on the keyboard. I also want to be able to use the keyboard as a midi controller to play some virtual instruments.
 
Though I know there are options, I am going to go with a workstation.  That gives me the most flexibility.
 
I know that both the Mox8 and FA-08 have built in interfaces, so I don't technically need another interface. I understand having an external interface is better, and gives me more options.  I will buy an interface.  I configure the DAW to use the interface, and not the other sound card I have in the computer.
 
So, considering a keyboard with a midi out and two TS 1/4 outs (L and R), and an audio interface.
 
A.  I would plug the midi out of the keyboard into the midi in of the interface.  
B.  I would plug the L 1/4 of the keyboard into input one of the interface (using some cable that is 1/4 to XLR/TLS)
C.  I would plug the R 1/4 of the keyboard into input two of the interface (using some cable that is 1/4 to XLR/TLS)
D.  I plug the monitors and headphones into the interface.  If I want to play the keyboard without the computer, I just plug them into the keyboard, since the interface requires USB power.
 
Am I correct on the A,B,C,D?
 
In this configuration, I am unsure on why I would need to plug the USB out of the keyboard into the computer to play or record anything.  The line outs and midi out of the keyboard into the interface takes care of this, correct?  
 
*I understand that the the keyboard may have specific software for programming that would require this connection.
 
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