I am doing some very finicky time correction work using Slip Stretch on 9 audio tracks (grouped clips) and running into all sorts of time consuming quirks in Sonar.
 
This one however is totally stumping me and I need to figure out what's up.
 
I've been splitting and Slip Stretching the grouped clips to a steady timeline however there are certain spots where I need to let the tempo "breathe" a little (or a lot) to hang on to some of the human nuances in the material. When I hit a spot that need to be sped up/slowed down and I know the exact tempo I want I am setting the Now Time and using the Tempo View to insert the new Tempo at that location.
 
*side note... At first I had been using the "Project > Insert Tempo Change" method of doing this and I thought that was working but then I started noticing that it was applying the change to sections BEFORE where the Now Time was set at thus screwing things up before the desired Tempo Change. It also seemed to be choosing an arbitrary range to apply the Tempo Change to (like it would keep the original tempos or other changes and just apply the new tempo somewhere totally weird and unwanted).
 
So I switched to inserting the changes using the Tempo View (setting the Now Time, pressing the + button to insert the new tempo). That seemed to be working fine for quite a few of these little changes.
 
NOW though, for no apparent reason, if I insert a tempo change using the same method the clip preceding the Tempo Change goes out of whack. Essentially the end of the preceding clip lands right on the Measure line and the start of it lands at my last edit (which is slightly before the measure an earlier measure line to accomodate an X-Fade on the previous clip). These clips are "slip stretched" BTW... just so that's clear.
 
What happens is the end on the clip in question nudges backward (away from the measure line) and the start of it jumps forward thus ruining my X-Fade from the preceding edit and/or totally pulling away from the previous clip.
 
The Tempo is NOT changing at ALL for the duration of the clip (which is confirmed both by the Tempo bubble in the Transport Module and in the Tempo View). The Tempo is only being changed for the section immediately AFTER the clip so the relative time between the clip and the timeline should not be changing at all (which is normally what would cause a clip to do weird stuff like this).
 
As I said this is all audio (not MIDI). Each track only has one clip each and this WAS working up until now (unless somehow I've inadvertantly changed my procedure which is possible but I don't think so).
 
I've done some tests to see if I can pinpoint the problem like using "Set Measure/Beat at Now Time" before making the tempo change. I tried inserting the change further down the Timeline to get it well away from the clip.
 
No matter what I do that group of clips (for that time range) STILL shortens/shifts/goes of the timeline.
 
It's kind of crazy.
 
 
I really hope someone can shed some light on this because it's a major problem. Is this a bug? Is my project corrupting?
 
Any ideas would be great. I know this is "advanced" editing stuff but hopefully someone here knows the type of work I'm talking about.
 
Thanks.

Anyone? This is very problematic.
 
I am having to resort to tweaking my stretches by ear and guesstimating where to use "Insert Beat/Measure" to get my desired tempos... which of course is VERY hit or miss so I have to do it a bunch of times to get it as close as possible to the desired tempo.
 
Not a pleasant workaround.
 
Cheers.

I always find it a little tough to understand exactly what's going on from a long written description, but is it possible that the slip-edited-away portion of the clip is for some reason being affected by the tempo change? In other words, if you bounce-to-clip the slip edited clip to fix the edit, does that change anything?

Thanks for the reply, Sander and yeah... I can be long winded but this is semi complex procedure and I like to make sure as much detail is in the OP as possible to make sure no one has their time wasted suggesting things that I've already tried. Maybe that's the incorrect tact but I do it hoping to widdle down the problem for anyone reading.
 
Bouncing wouldn't (or shouldn't) do anything to help this and isn't really a good option because I'm Slip Stretching multiple ranges/clip groups for the correction and only bouncing them down once the entire song is "corrected".
 
Essentially I'm not doing a stretch then bouncing the stretch and moving on. I am making all the stretches and cross fades throughout the song (across all tracks) then doing a bulk bounce maneuver on ALL the clips across all the tracks to end up with one single clip per tracks again (except time corrected).
 
Maybe I'm just pushing Sonar too hard or something and corrupting my projects. Should work though.
 
Cheers.

I understand. I just thought that maybe if you bounced a clip that had a slip edited ending BEFORE the tempo change but a "true" ending AFTER the tempo change, perhaps it might make a difference (so the "true" clip ending would also before the tempo change).

Interesting theory (and I'll check it out... thanks). Doesn't explain why the tempo changes worked before and have all of a sudden stopped working but I am nearing the end of the project. It really could just be gremlins gnawing at the wires of my project because I've done "too much" mangling.
 
Or I may have inadvertantly changed some obscure setting...
 
Or I'm just stoopid... which I'm hoping os the case because then someone smarter might point me to the solution.
 
I guess maybe it's important to note that this song starts out strong and fast then starts lagging (which is what I'm correcting). So the material is getting pushed further and further back. Maybe the earlier tempo changes suffered the same problems and now that I'm getting near the end it's only becoming apparent now.
 
However I've zoomed in to all the previous edits and the same symptons are not there (borked out X-Fades, space between clips, real world beats not aligned to the timeline, etc).
 
Anyway... I'm able to keep going using sheer will and brute force but it is SERIOUSLY making things take way longer. I found a bunch of other issues to. Slip Stretching does not obey Selection Groups nor does it obey Snap so I am having to manually adjust EVERY single edit on EVERY single clip freehand. It's brutal.
 
Oof.
 
Thanks though.

Okay... I'm gonna toss out a thought/idea I had that may or may not benefit this situation but I don't fully understand it so hope some of the smarter dudes can chime in.
 
I know there is a setting somewhere for "relative time" or something like that that allows the tempo to be changed while clips or events stay in place. I don't fully understand it and have only come across it a few times so forgive me for being vague.
 
Essentially it's supposed to be for film scoring and similar tasks where you can manipulate the timelime without clips going all wonky.
 
I doubt that's the solution I'm looking for but maybe it is. If anyone knows what I'm talking about some insight as to whether it might be a way to manipulate this situation to my advantage I'd definitely want to understand/try it.
 
Cheers.

Hmmmm what if you insert the tempo change at one tick after the measure?  So instead of 3:01:000 you insert it at 3:01:001?  My theory is that the tempo change insert is overlapping with the clip which is screwing up the stretch and making it reset or something?

rlared
Hmmmm what if you insert the tempo change at one tick after the measure?  So instead of 3:01:000 you insert it at 3:01:001?  My theory is that the tempo change insert is overlapping with the clip which is screwing up the stretch and making it reset or something?

Yeah, it's a great thought but I actually already tested that earlier today. I thought maybe because I was stretching the ends of the clips to a tick or two after the measures the tempo change was sucking the clip into it but even if I set the tempo change way down the timeline it still screws up the previous clip.
 
Nice catch though. I guess if anything this is documenting this oddball issue for anyone else running into it.
 
Cheers.

Oops I just re-read your post and I think you already tried that.
 
Another potential solution. . . I'm not at my computer but I've had a similar problems when you pull in an audio clip.  Do you have it set as a groove clip?  If so, check the "Groove Clip" properties in the inspector to make sure it has the right info in there.  Also do you have clips linked to it that are in the area you're adjusting the tempo on?  Just throwing out ideas. . . you've probably tried all of these already but I figured I'd give it a shot.