lfm
Offset mode in Sonar, as I recall, you did not really see what you did, and you don't feel in control.
Just to visually see what you did in the process is really cool.

You can also do this in SONAR. However, you need to realize there are two offset options.
 
You can offset automation in as many tracks as you want, and see the automation curves themselves (as well as the faders or other associated controls) reflect the changes you make. Furthermore, you can do this with different automation curves (even curves for different parameters!) at the same time, even on different tracks, with a single mouse click+drag. This kind of offsetting affects the faders and such when you haven't placed SONAR specifically in offset mode. So with this second type of offset, you are actually offsetting the levels of the faders themselves. The main offset mode (and of course, you can group faders in offset mode) leaves the automation envelopes alone, so it's designed for making level tweaks when the automation is already doing what you want to do, and you just want to add or subtract a constant from the automation.
 
For an example of the power of the second offset mode, suppose you have one automation curve changing a soft synth's level, and another controlling its filter cutoff. When you want the offset the level lower, you also want to offset the filter cutoff lower. On a different track, you have a second soft synth, but when you bring down its level you want less LFO modulation. You can move/offset all of these envelopes at once, or whatever envelopes or portions of envelopes are selected, with a single mouse click+drag. 

I've got to say, I personally have always found offset mode confusing and painful to work with. And on the rare occasions when I turn it on by accident, I find myself horribly lost.

John T
I've got to say, I personally have always found offset mode confusing and painful to work with. And on the rare occasions when I turn it on by accident, I find myself horribly lost.

Both offset modes are fantastic! They make mixing so much easier. However, regarding the main offset mode, I highly recommend not "living" in it. Get your automation the way you want. If one track is a little too loud or soft, zip into offset mode, change the fader, then go out of offset mode. If SONAR was a mechanical device, I would make the offset button a pushbutton you had to hold down while you were moving your fader, just so you'd remember to release it after making your tweak.
 
The second offset mode works only in track view but it is super-powerful, especially when you have multiple interdependent automation tracks for different parameters and you want them all to track each other...or have some track each other, and some not. It's brilliant stuff...admittedly I've logged a zillion hours doing remixes, but it became second nature to me pretty quickly.

Should retitle this thread "Why no VCAs in SONAR?" The OP and where it is truly focused are misleading. Nice original title, but this thread is VCAs.

Anderton

lfm
Offset mode in Sonar, as I recall, you did not really see what you did, and you don't feel in control.
Just to visually see what you did in the process is really cool.

You can also do this in SONAR. However, you need to realize there are two offset options.
 
You can offset automation in as many tracks as you want, and see the automation curves themselves (as well as the faders or other associated controls) reflect the changes you make. Furthermore, you can do this with different automation curves (even curves for different parameters!) at the same time, even on different tracks, with a single mouse click+drag. This kind of offsetting affects the faders and such when you haven't placed SONAR specifically in offset mode. So with this second type of offset, you are actually offsetting the levels of the faders themselves. The main offset mode (and of course, you can group faders in offset mode) leaves the automation envelopes alone, so it's designed for making level tweaks when the automation is already doing what you want to do, and you just want to add or subtract a constant from the automation.
 
For an example of the power of the second offset mode, suppose you have one automation curve changing a soft synth's level, and another controlling its filter cutoff. When you want the offset the level lower, you also want to offset the filter cutoff lower. On a different track, you have a second soft synth, but when you bring down its level you want less LFO modulation. You can move/offset all of these envelopes at once, or whatever envelopes or portions of envelopes are selected, with a single mouse click+drag. 

Thanks for tip on the second mode, really useful. Grouping options in Sonar are extensive.
 
But am with John T a bit on feeling lost in offset mode.
I think implementation with the automation offset line in Cubase and ProTools is really clever and make you feel in control. And when you feel you are done - your combine or freeze that into ordinary automation curve. Then even remove the groupings.
 
As it tends to be for me - I do temporary groupings for a certain cause. As little as possible is realtime till the end. This way I feel - what I see is what I get.
 
In Cubase if removing a VCA fader from a group - you are asked if to combine automation or revert to original.
So in Sonar even confirming leaving offset mode and have that choice is a step forward in my world.
 
The idea that is growing on me is using VCA's in two ways:
a) temporary assignments to trim automation of arbitrary tracks without regard to where they are routed.
With some kind of master offset mode grouped track in Sonar with visual feedback.
b) assignment in nested tree where I can control any relevant section as I please - not necessarily having automation of its own.
 
Will be different way of working keeping routing rather flat - and not so many busses in between. And you don't have to think about if any buss have children that do sends and effect return that needing to be kept within the same bus fader not to alter dry/wet.
 
I've read comments on other uses too, like someone mentioned a client comes in and doing his own vocals automation as he wants it on one VCA fader, compared to mixers suggestion. But that works with MixRecall in Sonar so would not stop me using Sonar.
 
But like the thinking in ProTools the most - VCA groups - where arbitrary controls are assigned to a group and then controlled by a separate fader and automation. There is huge amount of headroom in this approach that might make me switch daw. I sooooo like headroom and flexibility in tools. You are never sorry you started a project in a daw if there is headroom for anything that comes to mind.

Clearly there needs to be better documentation about SONAR's automation. So much of the functionality that's been described in this thread has been in SONAR for years, however the way of accessing it is not like with traditional mixers. So the main value I see of VCA-style mixing is that for those familiar with that way of working, it doesn't require learning a different paradigm.
 
One reason why I like spending time in these forums is that they always give me ideas of what topics to write about. Seems like my next Sound on Sound column should be called "Advanced Automation Techniques." Then users of other DAWs can read it, and complain in other forums "Why can't you include this function that SONAR has?" 

Anderton
One reason why I like spending time in these forums is that they always give me ideas of what topics to write about. Seems like my next Sound on Sound column should be called "Advanced Automation Techniques." Then users of other DAWs can read it, and complain in other forums "Why can't you include this function that SONAR has?" 

When it comes to context sensitive help I find Sonar is there right behind ProTools.
ProTools have the very best manual, as well as the best context help.
Both Cubase, Reaper, Samplitude, Digital Performer(ran trial only), StudioOne and Reaper suffer badly in this area.
Reaper manual though is really good - the right amount of depth before digging deaper in separate chapter.
 
So searching for familiar expressions like "VCA" produce no hits in Sonar 21.0.0.0 manual, as no hits in 21.9 help as I happend to have on this computer I browse internet with.
 
To get assistance in doing things - why not clutter manual and context help in Sonar with this.
Next could be extensive Youtube video tuts on various familiar doings.
Blogs only reach certain range of viewers - is like preaching for already fans.
 
How is your German:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRkSUB5heg4
 
One guy that adressed something like we talk about.
Although reading german 5 years in school and skiing in Austria a lot in the seventies, I held it up to date. Not so anymore.
I don't know how you get subtitles to youtube stuff.
 
I was able to follow briefly what he did - and explaining i a good way what is problem with busfaders and sends on children.
Also do groups on faders where is dedicate one to be vca and doing not audio.
Then doing automation write on the full group.
 
What is missing is the offset mode and if that can be used in Sonar to alter a full groups automation in a smooth way.

Anderton
 
Great, thanks for working through this with me. I was starting to think I was missing out on some game-changing feature because I just didn't see all this great value in it. Now I know why I don't 

 
Hi Craig, I can't resist tossing this quote back in your direction.
 
<<The crux of your post is about what matters to you.>>
 
I love Sonar, but lately I have also been using Studio One, and I use the VCA faders often. They take two seconds to insert, free me from any routing pre/post concerns, and best of all you get a nicely color coded single fader to operate the group of faders. In the mixer that red fader just sits right next to the faders it is controlling. It works very well.
 
The implementation is so quick that I have started grouping faders more than I used to. I know ideally that should not be the cause and effect, but in this time constrained business convenience and simplicity can have a direct effect on the quality of our work.
 
The addition of VCA faders in Sonar would be an improvement, not a redundancy.
 
-Naren

Anderton
So the main value I see of VCA-style mixing is that for those familiar with that way of working, it doesn't require learning a different paradigm.
 
Seems like my next Sound on Sound column should be called "Advanced Automation Techniques."

 
That first sentence is very important to me. I use three or four different DAWs depending upon location and circumstance. The old paradigms are often very good and are there for a reason. I want to think about notes, music and sound.
 
Commonalities between the DAWs are important. Imagine if there were no third party VST plugins for example.
 
As for your second sentence, I would appreciate a column like that very much.
 
-Naren

This may have been addressed already but the monthly subscription caught my eye because of the LP-MB that looks pretty cool. So I started reading about the monthly subscription and I may have missed but I don't see where you can get the monthly subscription for a month and cancel.  Is that in fact true? It seems even with the monthly subscription it is based off 12 months.  I have not renewed my yearly subscription but if it were possible to get just a month subscription for updates up to that point and have the option to cancel I would be interested in that.