• SONAR
  • A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy! (p.2)
2016/04/22 21:28:43
rogeriodec
Now I understand that actually a simple operation becomes very complicated in Sonar (which is unfortunately something common in this software).
 
Any editing software, simple as it is, has a simple concept: what is selected and is cut, all that is to the right should be automatically shifted to the left. This is something basic.
 
Now, we have to agree that the options "Delete Hole" and "Shift by Whole measures" are buggy. My images prove it.
And once again, we have to use manual operation to work around these bugs.
 
In my case, my mistake was to believe that "Delete Hole" worked.
 
But at least, partially following the suggestion of Anderton, I managed to solve this problem:
 
  1. Place the now time at 153:03:090.
  2. Select All.
  3. Type "S" (for "split").
  4. Edit -> Select -> Thru = Now (this is to correct the selection point that should be trimmed)
  5. Edit -> Cut Special (select everything EXCEPT "Delete Hole" and "Shift by Whole measures")
  6. Select All, again.
  7. Manually move all the clips to the first bar.
Many steps to something simple. But it's one of the difficulties that we must tolerate.
Anyway, I appreciate all your support.
2016/04/23 04:16:01
SquireBum
 
 
Splitting the clips should not be necessary.  If Delete Hole is working properly, selecting all tracks and setting the From and Thru time for the portion to be deleted is all that is needed.
 
Using the MIDI file provided by the OP, I tried the following steps in Sonar 8.5, X2a, X3e, and Platinum 2016.03:
 
Steps to reproduce:
1.  Opened provided MIDI file.
2.  Selected all tracks using Ctrl+A.
3.  Set the From time to 1:1:000 in the Selection Module.
4.  Set the Thru time to 153:3:090 in the Selection Module.
5.  Executed Edit > Delete Special... with the Events and Delete Hole checkbox marked.
 
Expected Results: Measures 1 thru 153.3.90 would be deleted and all remaining clips would be moved to fill the hole.
 
Actual Results: 
 
  Sonar 8.5, X2a, and X3e deleted measures 1 thru 153.3.90. The remaining clips moved together to fill the hole on all tracks. [PASSED]
  Platinum 2016.03 deleted measures 1 thru 153.  Clips on tracks 1, 10, 11 and 12 did not move.  Clips on remaining tracks moved to fill the hole.  [FAILED]
 
Conclusion:  Delete Hole does not work as expected in Platinum 2016.03.
 
I recommend the OP creates a Problem Report and provide the MIDI file example.
 
-- Ron
 
EDIT:  The Non-destructive MIDI editing option was unchecked in Preferences in all Sonar versions.
2016/04/23 10:57:56
Anderton
SquireBum
Splitting the clips should not be necessary.  If Delete Hole is working properly, selecting all tracks and setting the From and Thru time for the portion to be deleted is all that is needed.

 
True, splitting should not be necessary. However, if a split falls in the middle of a MIDI note, the note will not be split. (I believe this is a design decision, not a bug, however I think it would make more sense if it did split the note, and SONAR left it up to the user to deal with creating two notes where there used to be one.) Attempting to split and not getting a split makes it obvious when you need to split a note manually.
 
Conclusion:  Delete Hole does not work as expected in Platinum 2016.03.
 
I recommend the OP creates a Problem Report and provide the MIDI file example.

 
I don't think there's any need, it's a well-known issue that Delete Hole won't delete space in a track if there's no data in that space; this has been submitted before. The issue is that if there's nothing to delete, currently SONAR's delete operation doesn't know what to do. Please see my post above for the workaround. With that workaround Delete Hole works as expected. Note that the data doesn't have to be a clip, it can be anything. 
 
EDIT:  The Non-destructive MIDI editing option was unchecked in Preferences in all Sonar versions.



That's a useful addition of data, although I tried the workaround described above that allows Delete Hole to work properly with it checked and it worked the same way. I do believe there are a variety of conditions attached to whether it's checked or not, but I don't remember them all offhand.
 
Also FWIW, create a few tracks that don't have data until, say, measure 10. Then select all and try to Cut Special measures 1-9. Both Cut Special and Delete Special will be grayed out. Also these Delete Hole limitations apply to audio tracks as well as MIDI. 
2016/04/23 12:50:54
SquireBum
Anderton
SquireBum
Splitting the clips should not be necessary.  If Delete Hole is working properly, selecting all tracks and setting the From and Thru time for the portion to be deleted is all that is needed.

 
True, splitting should not be necessary. However, if a split falls in the middle of a MIDI note, the note will not be split. (I believe this is a design decision, not a bug, however I think it would make more sense if it did split the note, and SONAR left it up to the user to deal with creating two notes where there used to be one.) Attempting to split and not getting a split makes it obvious when you need to split a note manually.
 
Conclusion:  Delete Hole does not work as expected in Platinum 2016.03.
 
I recommend the OP creates a Problem Report and provide the MIDI file example.

 
I don't think there's any need, it's a well-known issue that Delete Hole won't delete space in a track if there's no data in that space; this has been submitted before. The issue is that if there's nothing to delete, currently SONAR's delete operation doesn't know what to do. Please see my post above for the workaround. With that workaround Delete Hole works as expected. Note that the data doesn't have to be a clip, it can be anything. 
 
EDIT:  The Non-destructive MIDI editing option was unchecked in Preferences in all Sonar versions.



That's a useful addition of data, although I tried the workaround described above that allows Delete Hole to work properly with it checked and it worked the same way. I do believe there are a variety of conditions attached to whether it's checked or not, but I don't remember them all offhand.
 
Also FWIW, create a few tracks that don't have data until, say, measure 10. Then select all and try to Cut Special measures 1-9. Both Cut Special and Delete Special will be grayed out. Also these Delete Hole limitations apply to audio tracks as well as MIDI. 




 
Craig,
  My conclusions were based on the fact that Delete Hole functioned as expected in 3 versions of Sonar prior to Platinum.  All tracks moved to close the hole, including the ones that started after end of time selection.
 
Are you saying that Platinum is performing as expected even though earlier versions provided the desired result?
 
-- Ron
2016/04/23 14:25:03
Anderton
SquireBum
 
Craig,
  My conclusions were based on the fact that Delete Hole functioned as expected in 3 versions of Sonar prior to Platinum.  All tracks moved to close the hole, including the ones that started after end of time selection.
 
Are you saying that Platinum is performing as expected even though earlier versions provided the desired result?
 
-- Ron



No, I just said that this is a known issue with Platinum that has been commented on before, and for which bug reports have been submitted. I can't comment on how Delete Hole worked prior to Platinum because it's not something I use much, so I don't remember...when arranging, I already have sections of clips grouped and just move them around, copy them, delete them, etc.
 
This is also why I make a lot of use of Select All + Split to segregate different sections for grouping. It seems like not very many SONAR users are into grouping, especially if they use MIDI because SONAR won't split the middle of notes, but it's been part of my workflow with Sony Vegas for years. I just naturally gravitated over to that workflow in SONAR. 
 
P.S. - FWIW I wrote about this technique in Week 76 of Friday's Tip of the Week.
2016/04/23 14:53:38
SquireBum
Anderton
SquireBum
 
Craig,
  My conclusions were based on the fact that Delete Hole functioned as expected in 3 versions of Sonar prior to Platinum.  All tracks moved to close the hole, including the ones that started after end of time selection.
 
Are you saying that Platinum is performing as expected even though earlier versions provided the desired result?
 
-- Ron



No, I just said that this is a known issue with Platinum that has been commented on before, and for which bug reports have been submitted. I can't comment on how Delete Hole worked prior to Platinum because it's not something I use much, so I don't remember...when arranging, I already have sections of clips grouped and just move them around, copy them, delete them, etc.
 
This is also why I make a lot of use of Select All + Split to segregate different sections for grouping. It seems like not very many SONAR users are into grouping, especially if they use MIDI because SONAR won't split the middle of notes, but it's been part of my workflow with Sony Vegas for years. I just naturally gravitated over to that workflow in SONAR. 
 
P.S. - FWIW I wrote about this technique in Week 76 of Friday's Tip of the Week.




Craig,
  Thanks for the clarification.  I interpreted your comment about no need for a Problem Report to mean that you thought this was working as expected.
 
  For clarification I created animations of the Delete Hole function in Sonar X3 and Platinum 2016.03.  This is my first attempt at a linked upload, so I hope it works. 
 
The first animation is Sonar X3.  Notice that the clips on Tracks 3 and 4 move to the left along with the MIDI notes in Tracks 1,2, and 5.  It appears that in this example that tracks that do not have MIDI data in the "hole" still move following clips to the left.
 

 
The second animation is Platinum 2016.03.  Notice that the clips on Tracks 3 and 4 do not move.

 
Thanks,
Ron
2016/04/23 15:34:02
rogeriodec
Excellent comparison job, Ron!
Now it visually clear that there is a serious bug in Platinum.
2016/04/23 17:10:42
msorrels
A serious bug that's been in Platinum for more than a year now.  One that is easily reproducible, doesn't involve any 3rd party software or hardware.  A function that users need/use pretty much all the time.  All the various cut/copy/paste/overwrite/edit MIDI bugs drive me crazy and they have been around for a very long time. 
 
Make MIDI better needs to be the meme, Cakewalk could start with this.
2016/04/23 18:41:01
williamcopper
Completely agree Sonar Platinum or maybe at some time in the X series has created serious selection bugs, they've been reported, they really cause loss of many hours of time, and they should be fixed.
 
For the OP, however, try using "select all", first, to get all tracks involved, and then "select by time", and then cut special with 'delete hole' (not 'by whole measures' .. that's another bug)  -- then even the unselected clips will be moved as you want them.    
 
For a specific procedure:   here's how I do it, but I'm not sure whether my shortcuts are unique to my set up or not (Ctl-A = select all and s = "select by time"). 
 
Click in track view, anywhere, to make sure nothing is selected
Type Ctl-A (select all)
Type S -- brings up the select by time dialog,   enter  1, tab, 153:3:090, enter.
Ctl-Alt-X  (cut special)
Check tempo changes and markers and meter and delete hole.
Enter.
 
 
(edit -- this is Platinum, Kingston ... seems to be an issue for later updates)
2016/04/23 19:54:25
SquireBum
Curiosity forced me to Rollback versions of Platinum until I found the last version in which Delete Hole functioned as expected.  The last version that functioned as expected was "Kingston".
 
So, the bottom line is if you can't live without the Delete Hole functionality, then you must rollback to "Kingston".
 
Hope this helps,
Ron
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