markyzno

tenfoot

markyzno
Cant beat circuits for sound.

Which is no doubt what someone once said about the phonograph cylinder:)

i wanted to report you for abuse :D 

Haha. No offence intended! Pure speculation on the shifting sands of truth:)

I have found the Korg Wavestation plug-in matches the hardware and it can even be said it is slightly nicer.  One reviewer made the same comment as well.  It does sound amazing.  I have just recently got the Korg M1 plugin and it also sounds terrific.  They have made some modifications to it which actually can make it sound different to the hardware.  Due to more advanced programming so on that front it could be said it has the potential to be better.  Korg have done a killer job on their own synths here.
 
I have had real Oberheims and also the Sonic Projects OPX Pro II and it is also another one that sounds stellar too.  And due to advances in programming better in some respects.
 
In some cases plugins like New Sonic Arts Granite go into places no hardware circuits could even contemplate. That is when they sound interesting to me.
 
Circuits don't make the music your ideas and playing does.  If you are moved emotionally at the end of the day then the music has done its job.  It's not about whether hardware did the job or software did the job.  It is job itself being done that is really important.
 
When Tangerine Dream came to Melbourne at the end of 2014 they brought a lot of hardware and software as well.  They blurred the lines between the two.  It was very hard to tell what was what.  It is the music that counts.  Edgar's tunes are so great they just transcend the hardware and software.  It did not really matter.  It was all that great TD music that really counted..

Jeff Evans
Circuits don't make the music your ideas and playing does.  If you are moved emotionally at the end of the day then the music has done its job.  It's not about whether hardware did the job or software did the job.  It is job itself being done that is really important.
 

Very well said ... and I would like to add that real inspiration does not come from driving a mouse around. So it makes sense to have some decent hardware synths, real instruments, real tubes that heat up the rehearsal room, and whatever else it takes to get people playing together.
 
On the other hand what regards actual production I'm very happy with the digital options at hand. I could never ever afford any of the units that my plugins emulate in each project, but here I am with an arsenal of tools to choose from ... couldn't be better, but hey these things also recall all settings, don't induce any hum, don't need external patching ...
 

deswind
Does anyone know of a plug-in where the hardware it is based on is not any better or perhaps where the plug-in is even better sonically?  Have you reached this point? I assume someday we will.
 
Certainly, the advantage of a plugin in cost versus a hardware unit, and the fact that it can be used on multiple tracks without added cost.

Hey Deswind
I've always thought the question of "better" is kinda tricky. It depends on what you're doing. For example, I really like the UAD and Slate plugins but I don't think their 1176 emulations sound like my 1176's. Same goes for Slates SSL compressor emulation (I don't own the UAD version), and the SSL console emulators particularly don't sound like my SSL. I've always thought Slate in particular was a bit too heavy handed when it came to his plugs...my SSL doesn't do anything close to as much coloration as his console emulator. That said, I still like and use all that stuff, and I like my hardware. It just depends on what I'm doing. Since you're in my neck of the woods, if you ever want to try it out you're welcome to drop by some time and poke at the hardware I've got.
 
BTW - even all these years later I still regret not taking you up on that microphone deal we talked about back in the day. It remains "the one that got away" :)
 
Dean

Jeff Evans
I have found the Korg Wavestation plug-in matches the hardware and it can even be said it is slightly nicer.  One reviewer made the same comment as well.  It does sound amazing.  I have just recently got the Korg M1 plugin and it also sounds terrific.  They have made some modifications to it which actually can make it sound different to the hardware.  Due to more advanced programming so on that front it could be said it has the potential to be better.  Korg have done a killer job on their own synths here.

My understanding is that in the case of the Wavestation and M1, Korg simply ported the algorithms over from hardware to software, so the algorithms that generate the sounds are essentially identical. However, the software versions aren't limited by the quality of the D/A converters that were built into the keyboards, which probably accounts for why you think the plug-ins sound better - they actually do .
 
But "better" is subjective. When I reviewed Waves' emulation of the Aural Exciter, I asked why they included a switch to introduce the noise of the original...seemed like part of the appeal of plug-ins is that you don't have to put up with that stuff. They said that in blind testing, without the noise some people said the emulation didn't sound "right" but couldn't explain why. When Waves switched in the noise, they then said the emulation sounded right. Go figure.
 
The other issue is the "My software emulation of the XYZ doesn't sound like the hardware version of the XYZ." However remember with analog circuitry, my hardware XYZ probably doesn't sound exactly like your hardware XYZ. When Line 6 models their amps, they get a bunch of the same amp and make a subjective call as to which one is the one, because they all sound different.

Anderton
The other issue is the "My software emulation of the XYZ doesn't sound like the hardware version of the XYZ." However remember with analog circuitry, my hardware XYZ probably doesn't sound exactly like your hardware XYZ. When Line 6 models their amps, they get a bunch of the same amp and make a subjective call as to which one is the one, because they all sound different.

 
Also there's the conflating of the concept of accuracy with being good. An accurate emulation of something may not actually be the best sounding result. It is fine if the idea is trying to emulate something accurately, but you can't say it is only a good sound if it emulates an existing device accurately. It can very well be possible to improve on something. Heck, in the digital world it is possible to flat out do things you just can't in the analogue world.
 
Personally I think that there's too much worship for some "vintage" gear in the audio world. If something was expensive to build and rare, there's this idea that it HAS to be amazing, where in reality sometimes it was just the best that could be had at the time and we now can do better.
 
I don't mind if a piece of gear has a particular sound that people like and they want to get that sound but it gets silly when that gets conflated to "This is the best sound and anything different is inferior."

Sycraft 
Also there's the conflating of the concept of accuracy with being good. An accurate emulation of something may not actually be the best sounding result. It is fine if the idea is trying to emulate something accurately, but you can't say it is only a good sound if it emulates an existing device accurately. It can very well be possible to improve on something. Heck, in the digital world it is possible to flat out do things you just can't in the analogue world.

 
YES!!!!
 
For example with the CA-X guitar and bass amps, I didn't want to model existing amps - we already have Guitar Rig, Amplitube, etc. for that. I wanted to model the "idealized" amp sounds I hear in my head. The analogy I use is that conventional amp sims are film, and the CA-X amps are CGI. 

When needing a brickwall limiter digital can be a better choice over analog.

If one considers the price of the hardware unit over the plugin, then I'm not sure whether they sound 'very similar' (or not) is the most important consideration.  I seem to be stuck on hardware reverbs and it's probably my imagination.

I would say the development of VST's are approaching or equal the "sound" of various hardware units, otherwise why would we now have plug ins that add in distortion, noise, clicks and crackles of analog sources?