Hello all, I am new to the forum, but not to Cakewalk products.
 
I just upgraded to Sonar Platinum and I like it so far and the plugins that came with it.
 
I do have some questions as to why my sound for my drums is seeming "sub-par" lately.  I will list my equipment that I'm using as follows.  
-For my audio interface is a Presonus firestudio (which is in perfect working order) 8 I/O's
-Overhead mics are AKG perception 420's
-Snare/toms are SM 57's
-Floor tom is Audix i5
-Kick drums are AKG D 112's
 
The overheads sound just fine (even in post), the kick drums are also good, but I'm disappointed with my snare and tom sound.
I have about 10 years of audio engineering experience and that is what's making me the most frustrated of all.
 
I just got a bunch of new XLR cables and I tested them and they all work just fine (the new cables have no impact on this current issue), I also put on all new drum heads that are worn in and tuned to pitch, but when I record the drums, they sound "weak".  The snare mic is pointed more towards the rim than the middle of the drum, with about 1" of distance and the tom mics are pointed more towards the middle of the drum for more low end at about 1" as well.  
 
After I record the drums and then go to mix them and apply EQ and compression etc. in post, just listening to the "raw" recording, the snare and the toms sound very "weak and puny".  They are being played at normal volume and the I/O's are as close to unity without going into the yellow or red (so there is no clipping).
 
I don't get it.  The recording volume is loud enough and the signal path is clear and unobstructed, the recording I/O's are setup correctly (in Firestudio and Sonar) but they sound like something is "wrong", or "missing".
 
I'm getting desperate, because it's not worth recording anything because, what's the point when you have garbage coming in, no matter what you do you have garbage going out.
 
Thanks!
 
 

I'd start at the beginning of the chain and work your way through. Replace all the mic's, one by one. You've done the leads, so interface next, then computer drives, ram and motherboard, in that order. If none of that works, it's the shells, so start with each of those. Obviously it's not the software.
 
Your right. Garbage is garbage after all. Frustrating heh!

Hello and welcome,
could be a phase problem between snare and tom (s-) cause your are using the same mics for snare and tom´s aso.
Sure you have tried to turn the phase of the snare and play it separate with each tom. from 0 turn up the volume of the 
snare til you get a phased ( as crappy as you described above) sound, then turn again the phase of the snare .
If you have still the same probs with the other tom´s, do the same with the rest of the tom´s , but keep the snare
volume fixed.
 
So, I´m a bit in a hurry so that I can´t go deep into details,
sure you know where I´m talking about.
regards

I'd also suggest phase. Zoom in on the recording and see if the snare is in phase with the overheads or, if you're getting a lot of bleed, with your tom mics. Also see if the snare and toms on your two overheads are in phase - if not, you may need to make their stereo spread wider to minimize the effect.

Puggles
 
 
I don't get it.  The recording volume is loud enough and the signal path is clear and unobstructed, the recording I/O's are setup correctly (in Firestudio and Sonar) but they sound like something is "wrong", or "missing".
 

There's nothing to not "get" here. It's really simple:
 
1/ Is any of the gear malfunctioning? If it is, fix it. If not, go to 2.
 
2/ Do the drums actually sound good in the room? If not, fix that, if they do, go to 3
 
3/ If the gear is all working correctly, and the drums sound good in the room, then by definition, your mic choices and positions are incorrect. Fix that. You are, again, by definition, not using "good technique".
 
That's it. No step four. Move the mics and listen on headphones. Point the mics to where they sound good. Pointing mics to a supposedly "good" position, that isn't based on them sounding good, makes no sense. I'm dubious about this "pointing to the rim rather than the middle" thing. Something like this can only be  rule of thumb. Point it where it sounds good.
 
You say it sounds bad despite using good technique. This is not a useful way of thinking. If it sounds bad, then you are using inappropriate technique. Or to put it another way, bad technique, for the task at hand. Might be good technique for some other task, but it's not working here, so stop doing it.

Sanderxpander
I'd also suggest phase. Zoom in on the recording and see if the snare is in phase with the overheads or, if you're getting a lot of bleed, with your tom mics. Also see if the snare and toms on your two overheads are in phase - if not, you may need to make their stereo spread wider to minimize the effect.

 
This was also the first thing I thought is happening: phase issue between room / OH mics and close mics.
 
don't forget to listen to the kit in the live room. e.g. if it doesn't sound good enough in the studio, you need to fix the kit itself first.
 
then check your OH/room mics (each stereo pair by itself, with everything else muted) - if it sounds/feels like what you heard when you were near the kit. if you are happy, check the snare by itself ...
 
If all close mics by themselves sound reasonable, take care of the phase (at least by flipping the phase switches properly) but better would be based on a recording where you can look at time differences between transients (e.g. snare compared to OH) and insert a delay plug-in (e.g. ChannelTools) which allows you to delay based on a specified amount of samples. Add the proper delay to all your close mics to match the OH and room mics (also match close OH and far room mics if you use several pairs) ...
 
Keep the tom mics out of the picture until you are happy with OH/room/kick/snare because that will give you most of your drum sound already. tom tracks might require heavy editing later anyway as they might just contain bleed that negatively impacts your sounds (for 99.9% of the recorded track) plus those 6 hits they during the 3 fills :-)
 
Let us know how it goes so that we can give you more hints on what else to try ...
 
 

I'm also a little confused by the OP statement that he has 10 years experience with audio engineering. Does this include recording and mixing live drums this way? Did it sound good in the past and now it doesn't? That would suggest a phasing issue as they can be tricky to pinpoint. Or is this the first venture, in which case mic aiming and even compression technique could be at fault.

not piling on just for fun<G>...
 
stop and take a breath - if you've done this successfully in the past you can do it again!

As folks have already mentioned, the basic troubleshooting process is three steps:
1) do the drums sound good in the room?
2) is everything working properly? (you seem to have that covered, nothing wrong with the Presonus interface!)
2a) have  you ever used these specific microphones on a kit before?
3) are the mics selected and placed well?

if you reach step 3 (suspect you will) then I'd fall back to a 3 or 4 microphone configuration to start -
D112 on kick, SM57 on snare/hat, something on overheads. I have tried the Perception microphone once, did not like it on vocals or acoustic guitar, and can't imagine it working terribly well on a kit - but that could also be personal taste!
 
While I'm being a big old wet blanket, any chance you can get a decent small capsule condenser microphone for the snare/hat? I love dynamic microphones, but there are some places where a condenser capsule makes life so much easier! Just beware of some of the more cost-effective products, many of them do not handle sharp transients as well as they might!
 
AND... how are you setting up the overheads? I find these can be a real challenge, especially if you have a lower ceiling. I usually set them up Mid/Side or Blumlein, or if I am using small capsule microphones I might try coincident. I've tried spaced pairs - large and small capsules, omni and cardiod pickup patterns- never got it to work!
 
anyway, if you start with the basic 3 or 4 microphone configuration and get that  to sound good then you can add additional spot microphones to taste, and you'll only be tweaking the position of one microphone at a time.
 
This ain't your first time at the rodeo - you probably have a strange and troublesome microphone in the  kit - most likely it is placement, nothing more, perhaps placement with respect to the kit, maybe placement with respect to a boundary?

One last trick, which you probably know, but just in case... a quick troubleshooting techniques  that gets used a lot for live sound, but works anywhere - mute all the microphones, unmute the kick, add in the snare - does it sound ok? add in the overheads - do they sound ok? Add in the rest of the microphones one at a time, whenever you have one that turns the drum mix to mid mute it and move on.

Have fun!

I was thinking phase as well, enjoyed this post!

I try to use the minimal amount of mics on drums. The Glyn Johns method, which uses 4 mics, is a great way to get a solid drum sound. 
 
If the tracks are already recorded and the performances are good, use Platinum's Drum Replacer to deal with the snare and toms. I assume because the drums have separate mics they're going to separate tracks.