• SONAR
  • Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help (p.2)
2016/04/03 11:21:07
paradoxx@optonline.net
I've used the Drum replacer as well, its a great tool!
 
2016/04/03 11:22:42
Jim Roseberry
Almost surely phase related...
 
The OP mentions that the sound coming off the overheads sounds good/balanced.
With the OH mics playing, add the snare close-mic track (nothing else while trouble-shooting).
If the sound doesn't get fuller (or gets weaker), then there's phase cancellation going on.
You can resolve this several different ways.
  • Quick way is to try using a phase switch (which will change the phase 180 degrees).
  • There are also plugins that allow exact adjustment of phase (not just 180 degrees)
  • You can also zoom in and manually (visually) align the phase of the snare track with the overheads.  Since the snare mic is closer than the overheads, it's signal will be a littler earlier.  Drag it back to where the waveform phase aligns with the overheads.
Phase related issues are common when using multiple mics at different distances.
Drum kit is an obvious example... with room, overheads, and clock mics.
The Overheads are much more distant from the snare and toms than the close mics... so it would be common for them to initially be out of phase.  With careful mic placement (overheads), you can minimize/avoid this issue.
Google search for "3:1 mic placement".
 
Add one drum mic at a time... making sure the new track is in phase (sound gets bigger/fatter).
Once all mics are in phase, the overall drumkit should sound pretty decent.
 
If you're working in modern pop/rock/country, I'd suggest routing the individual drum tracks to a Drum Subgroup.
On this drum subgroup, apply a bit of "bus compression".  The SSL Bus Compressor is perfect in this application.
Gives the drumkit more "weight/umph" without making it sound overly squashed.
Be careful with compression on cymbals.  Too much... and the cymbals sound unnatural.
 
IMO, The key to getting good acoustic drum sounds starts with the overheads.
If the overheads sound good... you've got a solid foundation on which to build.
If the overheads don't sound good... I'd recommend re-positioning and re-recording.
 
2016/04/03 11:24:33
tlw
The Glyn Johns method is great for natural sounding drums and a technique that goes right back to the early days of multi-track recording, or even just multi-channel mixers. Works well live to, unless the components in the kit are badly balanced acoustically.

Not so useful if you want to heavily compress or otherwise process part of the kit, e.g. compress the toms while not compressing the cymbals. Though spillage will cause problems with a multi-mic setup as well of course.

Which is one reason for the popularity of the Alesis SR16 back in the 90s and, as you say, replacing drums with samples nowadays.
2016/04/03 12:12:17
Anderton
tlw
The Glyn Johns method is great for natural sounding drums and a technique that goes right back to the early days of multi-track recording, or even just multi-channel mixers. Works well live to, unless the components in the kit are badly balanced acoustically.

Not so useful if you want to heavily compress or otherwise process part of the kit, e.g. compress the toms while not compressing the cymbals. Though spillage will cause problems with a multi-mic setup as well of course.



True, but compressing the overheads or adding room mics and compressing them can be a thing of beauty  
2016/04/03 14:18:52
vanceen
Plenty of people have suggested phase, but one more won't hurt.
 
I've learned a lot about mic'ing drums over the last few years, trying all kinds of combinations. I've accumulated a number of good mics over the same years, so I've gone from using mostly SM-57s to using much "better" mics: LDCs, various SDCs, ribbon mics, large dynamics (e.g. SM7), a couple of different kinds of kick drum mics, and so forth. Not to mention pre-amps.
 
Some people might disagree, but I would say that going from a half dozen SM57s to using 14 expensive mics on a kit can take you from "good" to "very good". It won't take you from "terrible" to "very good". If the kit sounds good in the room and you don't have major phase problems, it's not going to sound "terrible" in the recording.
 
The same goes for positioning (always assuming you're not getting big phase problems). I love the way my kit sounds with 14 good mics. But recently, for grins, I mic'd it up with just a couple of CAD Equitek LDC's for overheads and an SM7 about four feet away in the front. It sounded really very good, quite usable. OK, I would lack the control you get from close mic'ing individual drums, but it sounded good.
 
If you're getting a very poor result with the technique you're describing, either the drums just sound bad, you're getting phase problems, or something in your equipment chain is broken. 
2016/04/03 14:31:44
tenfoot
Puggles
 
I just got a bunch of new XLR cables and I tested them and they all work just fine


An outside chance, but did you test the new cables with a cable tester or multi metre? It has only happened to me once in 30 years, but I recently  bought 12 brand new mic cables only to find that pins 2&3 were cross-wired on 2 of them. 
2016/04/03 18:36:25
Anderton
About multi-miking vs. a limited number of mics...in the 60s, my band did some sessions in London with Damon Lyon-Shaw, who engineered "Tommy" and miked Keith Moon's drums. Our drummer Kevin had lots of toms and two kicks, and Damon miked each drum. Of course, he knew what he was doing and did a great job of controlling leakage and phase issues; the degree of control was exemplary. 
 
However, I engineered a hip-hop session a couple years ago where Brian from Public Enemy was producing, and did a variation on the Glyn Johns thing (although I put significant effort into the room mics too). It was a much simpler kit than Kevin's, so it was tailor-made for the minimalist approach. 
 
The sound had a lot of impact - the fewer the mics, the more the drums present a "united front" from a sonic standpoint. Although it was tracked in Pro Tools, I mixed in SONAR because with the QuadCurve EQ, it was pretty easy to "mix" the drums by just doing a little tweaking with EQ.
 
One other thing: I almost never use compression with drums, only on the room mics and even then it's parallel compression. Limiting is my main dynamics processor of choice with drums.
2016/04/03 19:37:57
MacFurse
I think most missed the intent of this post, as evidenced by the responses. Having said that, some great information passed on. It's a good topic after all. But the MO of the OP's (read plural) post (s), in my view, tiresome!
 
tenfoot

An outside chance, but did you test the new cables with a cable tester or multi metre? It has only happened to me once in 30 years, but I recently  bought 12 brand new mic cables only to find that pins 2&3 were cross-wired on 2 of them. 



There were a number of imports last year Bruce that were dodgy. All appeared high quality cable, good hardware, great terminations/heat shrinking etc, that were failing straight out of the box, or with little use, and were terminated incorrectly. I had one cable that had 5 breaks in the positive conductor over a 2 metre length. I got the cables from Perth, Melbourne and Sydney, but they were the same cable. L and R's reversed, pins reversed on XLR's, and the faults within the cable themselves as mentioned. I've bought a 100m roll of Mogami and make what I need now, after a number or tracking projects went wrong due to the above problems. Frustrating. We appear to be a dumping ground at times.
2016/04/03 19:57:25
jimkleban
I was going to suggest the AJ method as well and if that sounds good then start to build on it.  The room has everything to do with the sound of the drums.  The AJ method (since it is simple) can either eliminate the room as the issue, the mic choices as the issue the mic placement, etc. The AJ method also eliminate PHASE as the problem.  I just like to start there because it is so easy.  If the room allows, I love both stereo OHs and stereo room mics to bring the obvious AIR into the mix.
 
And drums are such a matter of taste.  The AJ method also shows that the OHs mics are where the sound comes from and not the close mic'ed tracks (which I only use to accentuate an attack or a certain sound).  But this is just me.
 
I can say this, SPLAT and a good audio interface should yield good drum sounds provided the room sounds good, the kit sounds good and is tuned correctly and the drummer knows how to play and controls the dynamics.  But I am only stated the obvious.
 
Jim
2016/04/03 22:33:43
tenfoot
MacFurse
There were a number of imports last year Bruce that were dodgy. All appeared high quality cable, good hardware, great terminations/heat shrinking etc, that were failing straight out of the box, or with little use, and were terminated incorrectly. I had one cable that had 5 breaks in the positive conductor over a 2 metre length. I got the cables from Perth, Melbourne and Sydney, but they were the same cable. L and R's reversed, pins reversed on XLR's, and the faults within the cable themselves as mentioned. I've bought a 100m roll of Mogami and make what I need now, after a number or tracking projects went wrong due to the above problems. Frustrating. We appear to be a dumping ground at times.



I guess quality control on imports has fallen victim to ebay prices MacFurse. I thought my experience may have been anomalous, but it looks like it's time to break out the soldering iron again. Ahh - I love the smell of roasting soft metals in the morning!
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