Keni

Billy86

Keni
Also to consider is that you might not get the best hi hat mapping...

I use both the TD12 and TD20 and the hats are never "right"

It usually requires manual editing to make best use of AD2's multi samples....

Internally I think the Roland system is more complex in handling the hi hat than current midi...?

Okay. Good to know. In the interest of the lowest-latency approach, do you know if it's more advantageous to use the 5-pin Midi connection or the USB Midi connection in terms of data-flow/speed?

Thank you... So, all the mapping is handled in AD2, or Session Drummer 3, or whatever VST I'm triggering? No need to map anything in Sonar Preferences/MIDI/Drum Map Manger. Do I have that right? 

No... You will have to either use a midi map or manually move each sound/key...

If you're trying to play AD2 live-direct, mapping is needed...

Sonar's map system us pretty good and/or you can edit within the TD... There are subtle advantages to each...

Okay. Good to know. In the interest of the lowest-latency approach, do you know if it's more advantageous to use the 5-pin Midi connection or the USB Midi connection in terms of data-flow/speed?

V-drum latency is a huge can of worms from my perspective. The above post is right. If you can monitor from the brain directly, that will always be the fastest. How you hear that with the song is another can of worm. So lets move the bar and say you want to monitor the Soft synth. Now things get more complex and laggy. Lets look at every step of the chain:
1. Trigger sensing time: I have found that 3.2 to 2.2 is the pocket with a Roland brain and trigger. Longer does not help, and shorter than 2.2 results in wild velocity results.
2. Most current brains offer both USB and 5 pin MIDI outputs but no specs are offered on either. good luck getting that info from Roland. I'm in process of switching from a Roland TD-30 to a Megadrum for that purpose, but I still have to test USB vs 5 pin because of the next step of the chain.
3. Into the computer: If your USB is used for many things, then USB gets bogged down. an Edirol UM-3EX is one fo the more stable 5 pin to USB converters if you want to try that rout. I just ordered an Alysium yesterday that uses copperlan to get 5 pin going into the computer using RJ-45.
4. Computer to DAW. The buffers in sonar is another lag. I'm running sonar at 64 buffers to minimize this, but I have a very strong Audio PC, most are running at 128 or 256 buffers. The lag is Buffers/sample rate. So the higher sample rate you run at will help this if your computer can go fast enough.
5. Processing in the VST. The more you ask the softsynth to do, the more lag it can generate.
6. Now you need to get the Audio out of the computer. Most converters have a fixed number of samples for the input and output. Again this is divided by the sample rate.
 
Assuming you don't have much going on with USB, the trigger time may or may not be the largest part of the lag. The largest lag and jitter component could be USB. Anything over 4.5 ms starts to feel bad. With 3.2 of that taken up by the triggers, it is very difficult and expensive to make the rest of the chain only take up 1.3 ms. 
 
I have been working on this for 5 years spending tons of cash. I elected for SSL alpha link coverters that only need 23 samples out (Only the QS RME line is faster at 8 samples ($$$$$$)). I also went with Megadrum trigger inputs, and an Alysium 5 pin to Network MIDI input. All to try and reduce that lag. I should be able to test it all in about a month. I also decided to work at 96K audio because past that takes up too much hard drive space and CPU overhead. 
 
Another detail to look at is the PPQ (Midi resolution) of the midi recording. Maxing it out at 960 may not be best because that puts to much strain on the CPU. Most go for 240 or 480 for best results depending on the tempo you are working at. It's all a balancing act and money pit.
 
Before you get to any of that, it also takes tons of time to dial in the velocities right. Triggers in general are not good a loud vs really loud. Once you dial in the triggers to  never overload, then you have hot spots to deal with that blow the velocity dial in out of the water. yet another balancing act that can be difficult to live with. I like BFD because of the velocity controls. In general, make the drums/triggers inside the brain sound good first before you ever try to dial in the VST. The VST velocity mapping gets used up trying to make the sounds work right.
 
I have yet to get to the Sonar routing of this. Should I have one track for MIDI only, rout the MIDI to the VST, then have another track that gets the Audio and then send that out? What if I want to blend sound on the drum brain with the VST? What if I want to use a real out board compressor on the snare like real drums? it all gets very complex.
 
I have plans to get my Edrum and real drums working side by side, then eventually trigger up my mic'd drums to get the best of both worlds.
 
My current setup started as an Edrum kit and has evolved into a full blown studio. Currently waiting on two 96 point patch bays, the Network MIDI adapter, and some cables that were all ordered over the last week.
 
Another trick I have been working on is rim splitting. Roland switch triggers only use one trigger and a switch to decide if the rim has been hit. This worked with a TD-20, but not on anything newer (I was bummed when I upgrade to the TD-30 to gain USB). You can use an insert cable and headphone splitter to ends the entire signal to one trigger in, and then only send the head signal without rim to another input. Then turn the head sound off for the main input, using the secondary input for the head sound. This allows you to dial in the trigger inputs for rim and head independently. Only the Roland brains understand how to interpret the rim right as there is no MIDI protocol for some of the things Roland brains do internally. I plan to use my TD-30 for rim sound only, and have the rest come from a Megadrum and BFD3. 
 
Hats are also a can of worms as stated above. I'm also thinking about a KAT DITI to get good hat controls.
 
Notes: I'm using Hart drums with the cones swapped out to Roalnd to re-gain position sensing. I also use a KD-140 with the head switched out to Magnums for less in room noise.

Wow - that's a lot of explanation, and some questions it seems.

I use a TD-12 with the 5 pin MIDI. I just use one MIDI cable - out from the brain. I also use audio out cables to monitor the brain playing an internal kit I select as I capture the performance. Then play back with the VST kit sound of choice.

I've had superb results. I personally prefer to record to a MIDI track for each main kit piece. I do put all the toms on the same MIDi track and the crashes on one crash track, and the snare and snare rim on a snare track etc. I prefer separate MIDI tracks for each kit sound because for me it's more enjoyable and easier to swap out different sounds for a single piece, double a sound with a copy to another MIDI track and choice of sound, and to make specific note edits.

That's a good way to organize the MIDI for editing. Nice

Elegentdrum... wow. You are miles down the road from where I am, and I appreciate the thoughts and insights. Lots to absorb there. From the little I know, MIDI is a complicated beast, as you indicate. 
 
Lawajava... yes. This sounds like it may be the way to go. on TD11, I can't come out on separate MIDI tracks for each kit piece, so it seems I MUST map to the Addictive Drums 2 vst to be able to have AD2 do that. AD2 has a built-in map for TD11. Am I missing something in terms of doing what you're doing to get separate MIDI tracks for kit pieces? 
 
To both of you: One other issue I'm having seems to be some sort of "ghost" midi notes, visible in the piano roll view. Like there's a second pad strike, when I know there's not. My VDrums are mapped to AD2, which is outputting to separate tracks. Any ideas on an adjustment I could make to the TD11 or Sonar MIDI settings or AD2 to eliminate those? Many thanks!

Hey guys... still working through my MIDI issues. I contacted Roland and they pointed me to Crosstalk settings. I also contacted XLN (AD2 creators) and they pointed to trigger settings in the V-Drums, and gave a link to a really informative article about what is actually going on when you trigger a pad and how to minimize double-triggers, which seems to be my issue.
 
I thought I'd post: http://www.drummagazine.com/plugged-in/print/dont-pull-that-trigger
 
 

Billy86
Hey guys... still working through my MIDI issues. I contacted Roland and they pointed me to Crosstalk settings. I also contacted XLN (AD2 creators) and they pointed to trigger settings in the V-Drums, and gave a link to a really informative article about what is actually going on when you trigger a pad and how to minimize double-triggers, which seems to be my issue.
 
I thought I'd post: http://www.drummagazine.com/plugged-in/print/dont-pull-that-trigger
 
 

 
Thanks for posting that!

Thanks for sharing, great article!

The Kat stuff is very deep and takes a while to get used too. The FSR tech is better than triggers, but does have some limits. I'm not aware of anybody making mesh head with FSR tech. Only a few brains can understand the FSR stuff.
 
Assuming a Roalnd brain, the trigger controls are great. If you are using a Softsynth, no need to get a brain with sound besides the monitoring lag issues, or live use without a computer. the Roland TMC-6 is very simple, and faster than any of the current stuff.
 
I can say the price to trigger controls/inputs is best with Megadrum.
 
The issues of cross talk, double triggers, and Volume tuning are best controlled with a heavy drum, mesh heads, and heavy stands. The rubber triggers on cheap stands are why the cross talk settings are in the trigger inputs. The larger the drums mass, the less mass that moves for the sensor, the better.
 
If you are trying to dial in position sensing. Order Roland cones. The Roland brains sense the frequencies of the trigger calculated from how their cones respond to their mesh head. The positioning is difficult to impossible to dial in depending on the trigger. The main problem with cones is the small hot spot in the center. 
 
FSR tech removes all the issues and is much more sensitive.....but. No rims (err separate trigger), no positioning, and no quiet heads.
 
If you want to trigger a real drum kit, FSR heads are the way to go. Trick drums also have some nice pedal triggers that incorporate well with acoustic kits, but they don't trigger well at low velocity. If you are a metal drummer doing duble base stuff....they are fricking awesome. If you are a jazz player wanting feather kicks....you want a KD-140.
 
I have both Trick and KD-140's and hope to do some trickory with MIDI blending the two for the best of both worlds. But I had to spend over $2000 just for my kick triggers to get where I am.
 
Roland brains do sound stuff that is not transmitted via MIDI for rims and hats and perhaps positioning of the cymbals. It has always been easier to dial in the sound on the brain vs the soft synths. The soft synths do have much better samples. Some people elect for a mixture of real and Trigger.
 
If you are trying to make a good recording, many will use a trigger set of drums, but use real cymbals. The blend is a decent option I may be trying out soon. With that method, you only need some condenser mics on the cymbals and avoid all the kick/snare/tom mic's and can dial in the kick snare for the song during mixing. But this removes the ability to loop, edit, and splice the drums like typical MIDI. Now you are dealing with real audio editing limits.