Hi all
 
I am sure I am missing something simple here...
 
Here is what I have done (and want to do)
 
I loaded a MIDI piano file and a vocal WAV file into a new project, which play perfectly in time with each other but were recorded in "free time"
 
I have successfully extracted the TEMPO MAP from the performance using MELODYNE 4 and now have a new project where a MIDI click track plays in time with the audio recordings of the vocal and piano (which is an audio render of the original Piano MIDI file) (YAY!)
 
However, when I import the original piano MIDI file it is NOT playing in time with the rest of the track - it is slightly slower
 
I assume the MIDI file is either now trying to "re follow" the new TEMPO (which was taken from itself!?!?!) or it is not following the tempo map at all
 
Does anyone know how I can get this MIDI file playing in time with the tempo map? - my gut feel is I need to find a way to get the original MIDI file to "ignore" the tempo / tempo map of the project so it plays back as it did originally (as the WAV render of the original file DOES play in time with the TEMPO MAP)
 
Any ideas?

Times for events in the MIDI file are specified in M:B:T domain, so they are bound to the Tempo map (which is M:B:T to seconds mapping). Audio files have times in seconds domain.
 
So, you can say you do not want that audio file follows tempo change (in fact nothing should be done for that while processing is required to follow) but you can not ask MIDI file to do this. Let say in the MIDI file there is C4 event at 2:2:0. What you ask is: "While my 2:2:0 in the tempo map is at 6.5 second from the song start, I want C4 be at..." really where? Where it had to be in case you had constant 100bpm tempo map? That will be "fix tempo map for MIDI clips" than. I do not think that is available in Sonar.
There are some processing functions like Fit to time and Fit Improvisation, but I do not think they can help in this case.

Search the help file for working with midi clips. It explains a few ways to stretch the midi clip to the length.
 
As I understand it if you position the first note of the midi clip where you want it you should be able to stretch the end to the place it should be.
 
I'm not sure how this will behave with your tempo map but it might do what you need.
 
Good luck

Correct me if I'm wrong; the original midi file is NOT in time with the original project tempo?
You converted this to audio and created a proper tempo map (new project, right?).
Then imported the original midi clip into the new project.
The original clip is not ON; meaning the 1 is not the 1; is that right?
Convert the audio (piano) to midi and you should be good to go.
 
T

My recommendation is to skip the conversion to audio and extraction of tempo using Melodyne. The MIDI will make the best reference for setting a tempo map. The following assumes the MIDI clip and audio track both start at 1:01:000; if not, you will need to do some extra steps to lock down the start times.
 
- Play the track, count out 8 measures in your head and stop the transport close to 9:01.
- Select the MIDI track, and Tab or Shift+Tab to the MIDI event that should be at 9:01 or some other nearby known beat.
- Shift+M to open Set Measure/Beat At Now, and enter Measure 9, Beat 1 (or whatever that nearby beat should be). SONAR will reset the initial tempo to align the timeline to that point, shifting the timeline around both MIDI and audio without altering their absolute playback timing or relative sync.
- Listen through the piece with the playback metronome running, and set additional beats as necessary to follow the measure-to-measure variations either before or after that first point. Depending on how solid the tempo is, setting every 4 measures or so might be enough.
- Setting that initial tempo helps SONAR "guess" the measure and beat for additional points so you can usually just hit Enter/OK without having to type in the measure and beat. If the guess seems way off, make sure you have the Now time set on the correct note before changing it, and note that you can set fractional beats as well (e.g. beat 2.5 is the third eighth note in the measure)
- If you need to back up and fix something or start over, use Undo rather than deleting a tempo change. If you delete a tempo, the MIDI will follow the change and foul everything up.
 
I find this to be the most flexible and precise way to align the timelines to freely played MIDI. Once you become adept at it, it generally takes no more time to do this manually than to jump through all the hoops to make any form of 'automatic' detection do exactly what you want, especially when working with mixed MIDI and audio tracks as in this case.

MIDI clips will always follow TEMPO.
   The project must be at the same Tempo (Map) as the original project.
   If the tempo is right but they don't start in sync, move the audio track to start on your measure 1.
   If the timing is off, you may have to adjust tempo a few 1/100's at a time. If you are using a Tempo Map, it must be         aligned the same as the original.

Thanks all
 
This particular piece is in a very "free" time so I will check out the suggestion by BRUNDLEFLY
 
I haven't done this before and i seems like an essential skill I need to get under my belt so even though I have thought of a "workaround" since posting I will give this a go as a journey of self development
 
My workaround is to keep the audio following the tempo map (which is working) and then work on the MIDI file in a completely different project. When I have everything tweaked I will render it to audio and import in to the original project

While I agree with Brandefly, I am more programmer then musician. And we are so lazy, we prefer to make computers do the work for us, even if we need to "teach" them first
 
Also I can imagine that someone has extract tempo from some other free played audio source (guitar, drums, etc) but recorded MIDI listening it, without the tempo map applied first.
 
And so my usual link: http://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,286.0.html
"Apply tempo map" preset is now included into Examples attachment (at the end of the thread). There you can also look at the source code, if you are interested how it works.
 
How I have tested it:
1) with click turned off, I  have played on my (digital) piano and recorded the result as MIDI in Sonar
2) rendered that MIDI with TruePiano plug-in, exported WAV
3) loaded it into Melodyne, extracted tempo map
4) opened tempo map MIDI as different project, selected "all" and "Copy special..." with Tempo selected
5) back to the original project, "Paste special..." that tempo map. So, rendered audio is still the same, tempo map is following it, MIDI clip is out of sync...
6) extended MIDI clip to be a bit longer then shown audio, selected it, right click "Process Effect"/"MIDI Effects"/"AZ Lua". Selected "Example: Apply tempo map" preset, checked BPM (it was default for Sonar 100), pressed "Ok"
7) MIDI clip is perfectly in sync again (checked with rendered audio in parallel to MIDI+VSTi)
 

Hey Azslow
 
That is exactly what is happening
 
I tried loading your link but it won't load ?
 
Are you saying you have a "plugin" / script that I could apply that will sort this out?

My service provider is down... And no one answering on phone (21:00 here...) Sorry...
 
[edit] The site is fixed
 
Yes, that is free plug-in and preset (which is Lua script) which does the trick.