• SONAR
  • Anybody Using WideMouth Stereo Widener?
2018/06/13 03:26:35
SonicExplorer
Hi,
 
I normally prefer to see a number of solid reviews in terms of quality and safety/stability before trying out VST's. however I'm not finding much on the web about Widemouth.  Any of you guys ever try this VST and have any thoughts to share??   
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LIuIisopsY
 
Sonic
2018/06/13 14:13:54
bitflipper
Wideners come in three basic flavors (some combine 2 or more of the 3 techniques). Some of them are dangerous. You'll need to find out what method(s) a given widener plugin employs and be aware that some methods can be destructive.
 
Widening is based on the way our brains process dissimilar input from each ear. It's how we localize sounds in nature, how we evolved to know which direction a twig snap came from, in order to hunt prey or to avoid being prey. Audio engineers who understand that mechanism are able to trick the brain of the listener into perceiving three-dimensional sound information that isn't really 3D at all.
 
Whenever we hear the same exact sound in both ears - no phase, frequency or time differences - we then interpret that as a pinpoint sound coming from directly in front of us with no sense of direction or width. But we enjoy the immersive experience of being enveloped by sound, as we are in the natural world. But in order to perceive sound as being three-dimensional, each ear needs to hear something a little different from the other. Stereophonic perception is all about making the left and right channels (plus maybe front and rear channels in surround sound) different from one another.
 
One of the ways our brains perceive location is through small phase differences between left and right. If a sound is coming from the left, it will take about half a millisecond longer to reach your right ear. We are actually able to sense that tiny phase shift. (At least, within the upper half of the frequency spectrum. Low frequencies' wavelengths are too long). So one method for artificially introducing a sense of width is to insert a time delay between left and right channels. That time delay will usually be short, typically under 5-6 milliseconds. More extreme effects can be implemented with delays up to around 20 ms. Metal music uses this technique a lot for that wide rhythm guitar sound so essential to the genre.
 
This method is dangerous, because the effect only works when there is adequate L/R separation and the two sides are equal in volume. Works great on headphones and when you're seated in the ideal mix position forming an equilateral triangle with your studio monitors. But play the sound back in mono, or listen from the next room where the stereo channels have been mixed acoustically to mono, and the width illusion disappears. Worse, it's replaced by comb filtering that makes your music sound thin and hollow.
 
Fortunately, there are other methods that aren't as dangerous. The point is to create (or exaggerate) differences between the two channels. One method is to use complementary filters to generate L/R differences. This is completely safe, because when you combine the different channels you get the original, unfiltered tone. So we say that it's mono-compatible. It can also be used to fake stereo from a mono source. There are a number of plugins available that use this technique, such as Meldaproduction's MStereoSpread. You can also do it manually by cloning a mono track and then applying graphic equalizers to each track, set to opposite settings.
 
The third approach is to just accentuate whatever L/R differences already exist, rather than creating artificial differences. This, I suspect, is what Widemouth does (I haven't used it so I can't be certain). It's known as Mid/Side processing. The idea is that you separate the parts of the music that are common to both sides from the parts that are different, and adjust them (EQ and/or volume) independently. It's actually simple math and not as magical as it sounds. The Mid component is everything that's the same between left and right, and the Side component is everything that's different. Turn up the Side, and whatever width is already in there will be accentuated. Boosting the high frequencies in the Side (while optionally dipping highs in the Mid component) also exaggerates width because we're more sensitive to differences in the high frequencies.
 
Some equalizers (e.g. FabFilter Pro-Q) let you apply filters to just the Mid or Side components. Some compressors (e.g. FabFilter Pro-C) let you apply different amounts of compression to Mid and Side components. Some plugins (e.g. Voxengo's free MSED) merely let you adjust the volume of Mid and Side components independently. 
 
All can enhance width - usually without endangering mono compatibility. However, this method only works if there are already L/R differences. It will not make a mono track sound stereo. So before you can even think about applying this type of widener, you want to first create as much width as you can using panning.
 
SONAR/Cakewalk comes with a great stereo manipulation tool called Channel Tools. I use it primarily for panning stereo tracks, but it can also apply multiple techniques for stereo widening, including time delays and Mid/Side volume. 
 
Sorry about the long reply. Sometimes my fingers have a mind of their own. To answer the original question, I have not used Widemouth. I'd say try it out and see what happens. When you've got it sounding good, click the interleave button on your master bus to make your whole mix mono. If everything suddenly sounds like crap, bypass the widener plugin to see if it's the culprit. 
2018/06/13 14:34:58
bitflipper
Just to add a footnote...professional mix engineers rarely use wideners, and when they do it's on individual tracks or it's applied very conservatively. It's entirely possible to create wide-sounding mixes without them. I confess to being a cheater, and do use wideners - but it's always the very last step, after I've done everything I can to make the mix wide using conventional panning and EQ.
 
2018/06/13 18:26:30
SonicExplorer
Once again, thanks for such great information, very helpful and informative.  WideMouth, according to the video, adjusts the timing of one side of a pair of (identical) mono tracks.....or maybe it even works on a single mono track, that part I'm not entirely clear.  According to the narrator it is allegedly one of the most non-destructive/phasing wideners.

But....instead I usually want to slightly widen a pair of separately recorded tracks that are panned L/R.
 
I am entirely unfamiliar with Channel Tools, it's not available in Sonar 5 (arrived in Sonar 8 apparently).  But it sounds like mid/side approach is what i need, just have to find something that will do it for me.  I'll try MSED.
 
Sonic 
2018/06/14 16:03:05
bitflipper
Be very careful with any plugin that achieves widening via delays. If you're working with two separately-recording tracks, you don't need them anyway. You can get the widening you want from M/S processing and complementary EQ/compression. If it's two specific tracks, route them both to a common bus and apply your widening effect(s) there.
 
Does SONAR 5 have a graphic equalizer? If so, that's a quick-n-dirty way to implement complementary EQ to create L/R differences. 
2018/06/15 00:16:06
mettelus
It is worth watching the MStereoSpread teaser on the page listed above as is also reiterates things Bit mentioned. Delay-based stereo also will not collapse to mono. That teaser also shows a couple examples of mixing usage in it.
 
Unfortunately Melda's stuff only goes back as far as Vista. This post made me curious about that. I actually still load 32-bit VSTs because I use an older version of Adobe Audition for wav editing.
2018/06/15 02:15:53
Brian Walton
Check out izotopes free widener plugin.

I've found it is my go to greater than 50% of the time when I want to add it to individual tracks.
2018/06/15 03:27:46
scook
iZotope Imager runs on Win7 and newer
 
MeldaProduction dropped XP with v12, however; the previous versions are in their archive. V12 was just released so this is a way to get modern plug-ins (v11) that run on XP. To get a taste of these plug-ins (and validate they will run on SONAR 5) download the last v11 version from the archive and install the MFreeFXBundle. All Melda plug-ins have time-limited fully functional demos. The plug-ins and bundles frequently go on sale (usually 50% off).
 
2018/06/15 03:43:58
SonicExplorer
I just tried Voxengo CurvEQ, which I'm already using on the guitar buss.  It has Mid/Side in it.  But can only do either mid or side, not both. So to do both I'd have to chain two EQ's together (not a fan of that if it can be avoided).  Using just side does widen things but gives the impression of shifting the overall tone upward in frequency. I'd have to re-EQ everything with that in mind.  Which I guess is ok as long as I start out with that setting in mind, so maybe this is a good solution.
 
I tried the complementary EQ carving approach and had mixed results, will go back and revisit that again.  I dislike this approach because it makes getting the overall tone dialed in more difficult.  And every time you want to adjust something, you have to go to the other track and counter-tweak again.
2018/06/15 04:21:42
Kamikaze
bitflipper
 
Sorry about the long reply.




I've never seen a post you need to apologies for Bit. Clear concise and reader friendly. By now we could probaby search through all your threads and collate an 'Unofficial BitFlipper's complete guide to Production' int a PDF
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