jatoth

Anderton

M@
That way I don't have to worry about being faced with a potentially unstable system every month.

 
Cakewalk is kicking around an idea that may solve that issue. Nor ready for prime time yet, though. 
 

I think this is ALL some of us have been asking for. I hope it gets kicked up a notch

If it's not done right, it could turn out to be a textbook example of the law of unintended consequences...but the Bakers are creative folks, we'll see if they can figure out a way to do it.

There was an invite for Beta Testers sometime back.
Did Cakewalk got them?
 
Regards
Snehankur

Got a mail from Cakewalk:
 
Renew your SONAR Rolling Update Plan
Offer Ends Soon! 

Now through February 28th, you can renew your SONAR Platinum Rolling Updates Membership for a one-time fee of $99 ($50 off the regular renewal rate).
 
I thought it was till 31st March.
Am I wrong?
 
Senhankur

AndertonHowever maybe as Kamikaze is proposing, you actually mean the add-ons to SONAR like Nomad, Soft Tubes, XLN and AAS.
 

 
I forgot Overloud too.
 
For the record I'm not interested in the loops and much of the work that Craig has put into expanding options over the last year. This isn't intended as a dig at Craig's efforts, because it doesn't matter whether I like or use it. Sonar development shouldn't be about just pleasing me. Stacks of people enjoy the content and FX chains, it expands the program and rounds it out. Now that is what I think should be expected from Cakewalk, a well rounded and highly functional program, that is robust too.  
 
The relationships with the 3rd parties have helped made it a well rounded program.
Nomad - These have given a wealth of good quality plugs, that help make the program be 'complete' out of the box.
AAS expanded the range of synth options, these fit a range of Genres. The influence of the rhodes, means it fits so many genres, included dance music. I happened to have the complete set direct from AAS so none of this content added anything to me at all. But it's good content I had already purchased it, so I this just happened to not apply to me
XLN - gives the users the option of pursuing a range of higher quality drums beyond session drummer, and also expands on the drums available with session drummer out of the box.
TH2 (Overloud) gave  a good quality guitar amp, which a modern DAW should have really. I'd prefer this to cake developing their own version.
 
I don't think these have added anything additional since the new payment option.
 
Soft Tubes and Overloud are a bit different, as they work with cakewalk with things like the pro Channels. I love the Pro Channel concept, and bringing in specialists to develop good quality functions has helped these options be valid options. When I see a new processor in the 'Deals' section, I have to ask myself, do I really not have something that can do this really well already.  This is what I want from development in Sonar, the options to be good enough that I don't think I need to add anything unless it really makes a difference.  These 3rd partly development relationships seem to only bring good things to the table and means the Sonar teams can specialise on their specialty, Sonar.  The BOX option I like,  too, not that +10db comes free, but it's good to see them working with other companies to expand pro channels. (On a side to this, I wished yesterday that I could have the PX64 shapers functions as prochannel option, but then gave FX Chains a go and that was so simple to make and modify)
 
Then we have ARA with Melodyne. And with the new version 4, I expect to see some further developments with integrating this, especially with Studio One showing that some things like importing timing maps can be made better
 
So I'm full of praise for the third party relationships, and they help the staff concentrate on the core development and fixes. 
 
The idea that the majority opinion should rule on what happens will only help loose a customer base, no maintain it. If you don't use MIDI that much, and they update, fix and develop this aspect, well you still benefit. It makes the program more robust, flexible and helps keep existing customers, and a reputation brings in new customers. And this does help you. Because that enables them to focus on the things that do interest you, by being a more financially stable product.
 
What I would like to see Staff improvements (no surprise to some of you I mention this first, and this part is archaic compared to the rest of the platform ). chord tool to help improve composition stages. Midi improvements. I don't know other DAWS, but other users seem to be aware that other DAWs have some great functionality we are missing out on. On the Audio Editing and Mixing front we have had lots of improvements that I wouldn't have thought of. Some responses to these have been so positive, and surpirse at the unexpected functions these can be used for. I want to feel this surprise on the Midi front for a change.
 
Do I think that I have seen the areas that I think are weak developed enough in the past year. No, I don't. I haven't signed up to next years upgrades yet? No, but I'm going to. Not because of what I have seen lined up in the next 3 months. I don't know enough about the Mastering improvments, but I am glad to see they have finally listened to request for colour personalisation to return (It was nice in the past when people showed their set up and shared them with other users).
 
 
Do I think I got good value from the past 12 months? Yes. Seeing the cost for the next 12 months, especially on offer, then I good for it. Hopefully we'll see the timing import from melodyne happening soon as it was suggested (by Noel I think), it should be easy to implement. 
 
Do I think they should focus on bug fixes? No. There are too many small improvements that can be made that aren't bug fixes, many we have been asking for for a long time. I don't think that cakewalk have been involved in the features and ideas section and I would like to see a lot more involvement with the customer bass on this. Yeah sure surprise us with things like Vocal Align that no one has asked for, that then prooves to be a far more flexible tool beyond syncing voice to video, but gives us what we are asking for too. Make it not feel like a one way conversation. But then we are getting the 'Feedback Portal', so maybe things are going to be in that direction anyway (Not that I think this should be a selling point for the next three months, as they should really be providing that as good customer relations, and they haven't been doing so far with the forum option)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

The OP is definitely a complex one as alluded to by many. I think a focus on improving/perfecting existing features (big list actually) that could have more functionality is warranted; since much of the functionality exists already, but could use some work to "get there."
 
An interesting caveat, and Achilles heel in many ways, is that legacy code carries with it the downside that it has often been appended (not pared down/optimized) and as time progresses few employees understand ALL the code and chose to "let sleeping dogs lie" as it were. The jump to the X-series required a deeper review of this code, but several years have already passed.
 
Lastly, a new user/employee is worth their weight in gold because they challenge "what is" and often ask "why is it this way?" Companies who understand this excel, and those who do not end up crippling themselves with "yes men" while their competitors incessantly gain ground. This is a very important fact to bear in mind, since an "irate new user" is the best source to get feedback from. To that end, having a "hobbyist" do things with SONAR, talk about what they want to do, etc. with someone from CW watching and taking notes (not offering workarounds, mind you) would reveal a lot that often gets poo pooed down. Work flows and gaps in them are what most users will care about because they boil down to time - the one resource we all have a finite amount of and the one which matters most.
 
As a quick example, and one that would apply to the most basic hobbyist (trying to approach from a true amateur perspective)... say on the go, and capture ideas on a cell phone...

1. Finally on a computer (yay!) and eager to sandbox... offload the wav/mp3 and first thing is want bpm/key information...easiest solution - Melodyne (or similar).
2. Okay, create project with bpm, import wav as a guide and decide whether to fuss with it or not.
3. Begin rough tracking in a non-optimized environment so need to remove noise from tracks as they are fleshed out... need to now pop these open in another program for noise reduction (Audacity, Audition, RX4/5, etc.)... now this begs the question "Can I skip the middle-man and just track there?"... but persist and destructively edit them and return to work more in SONAR.
4. Arrangement time... piece parts all over and want to chop/swap at will, tempo change, refine sections to be re-assembled into the whole later... now a can of worms opens with numerous "options," each with its own advantages/disadvantages...

Will stop at that, but it gives the big picture. General idea is simply "on the go" with a set 2 hour window at a computer for "dedicated work." I had given myself a challenge to sandbox in 30 minutes once, but realized that was an excessive (impossible?) goal right quick. Sandboxing in even 2 hours can be aggressive for someone familiar and knowing some workarounds.
 
Food for thought anyway.

Well - I see I started quite a discussion.  Perhaps my original post was a little too drastic.
The point was to work on stability across the various likely systems out there and when necessary prioritize that over something that might add more complication and more bugs.
 
If I wanted a feature added - I have been begging for more color control for a long time - something similar to 8.5.3 that has been lost.
 
But really - if there is a choice between stability, bugs and errors and introducing more complexity which can affect the code (speaking over my head now) which could increase instabilty more bugs or errors, please choose stability, reducing bugs and errors.
 
Sometimes, moratoriums on somethings help a manufacturer catch up to the status quo.  It did not have to be a year.  It could be a focus for three months.
 
And it would be nice to know the list of hardware that Cakewalk people test their systems on and the systems that they find it work the best. (And I mean all the components, motherboard, video card, etc.)  Then people can try to match that.  Just a thought.
 
A wise person listens to everyone.
Enjoy!

Paul P

sharke
These "no new features please" sentiments come up fairly often in the forums and I think what a lot of people don't understand is that unless Cakewalk continually attract new users with spanking new features, there won't be any revenue with which to continue fixing bugs.

I wonder how many "new users" have hopped on the Sonar bandwagon in the last year.  I can understand someone (like myself four years ago) dreaming of one day owning Sonar and buying it when that becomes possible, but then it wouldn't be because of the lastest New Feature.  Where would a new user even hear about the latest feature ?  My hunch is that the majority of sales is from the established base buying renewals and a few newcomers wanting to become a part of that community.  It's quite a decision to jump off and I don't see the lack of something new turning off most people that are already on.  Staying current is what is important to them (meaning make what's already there even better and keep up with changes in OS).
 
Also, while I'm at it, Cakewalk should probably abandon soft synths altogether.  It pains me to say it since that is a huge part of why I bought Sonar, but I don't think the resources are sufficient for something monumental, and they could probably be put to better use on Sonar itself.  Repackaging old software is kind of sad, especially when it's rereleased with major bugs.
 

I completely disagree. I think new users looking to get into making music do a LOT of research into feature sets and pros/cons. They're reading reviews, they're scouring the manufacturer's website with a fine tooth comb and they're going on Gearslutz and asking "which is the best DAW for making genre X?"
 
I only got back into making music in 2012 or so. I started out with a lite version of Pro Tools and quickly found that it wasn't really the ideal platform for delving into the kind of prog-electronica I felt bubbling inside of me. So off I went to Google to research an alternative. The reason why I chose Sonar was because it seemed to offer some good features for the MIDI/synth nut as well as being a great all-round DAW for audio recording - being primarily a guitar player. I read each manufacturer's website fully and watched lots of up to date videos showcasing each DAW. Had I been 20 years younger and less interested in recording audio, I probably would have chosen Ableton. Cubase didn't really appeal to me at all at the time. 

A big thing that Sonar had going for it in my eyes was that it looks a lot more professional than Ableton. I know it's shallow to judge a book by its cover but it's pointless denying that the look of a program affects your perception of it. So to me it felt right, it looked right and it seemed to have a diverse feature set that would accommodate a flexible range of musical genres. 
 
But to a kid who wants to get into EDM and is watching tutorials on YouTube before he makes a purchase, Ableton looks a lot more attractive. Just little things like automating synths and effects looks a lot more intuitive. The session view looks a lot better than the Matrix. Ableton has a drum rack that you can just drag samples onto and create separate FX chains for each pad. I just can't see them getting excited about loading samples into Cyclone. And Ableton comes with The Glue, an excellent compressor which sounds great on EDM. 
 
I really believe Sonar could be capitalizing on what it already has and making things look more attractive to the young bedroom producer. Lots of these things would benefit more traditional users to, for example look how easy it is to shape a custom automation curve in Ableton or Logic by just dragging it. In Sonar what do you have? Fast curve/slow curve with no way of bending it outwards or inwards to taste. It's a little behind the times in many fundamental regards. Sonar is missing some essential tools for modern production, like hard-wired LFO sources (have you ever tried using the sine tool to draw automation? It's horrible!) and a good quality filter with LFO modulation. These are pretty basic things which I'm sure the Bakers could write with one arm tied behind their backs. 
 
I also disagree that Cakewalk should give up on softsynths, they have some great talent there. Z3TA+2 and Rapture are excellent. I also think it's a shame they don't produce more effect plugins because again they have a huge potential. Look at the CA-2A. The ProChannel needs a good quality delay module baked in (can't understand why it doesn't come with one) and the Quadcurve could use mid/side processing. Loads of room for improvement. 

sharke
I completely disagree. I think new users looking to get into making music do a LOT of research into feature sets and pros/cons. They're reading reviews, they're scouring the manufacturer's website with a fine tooth comb and they're going on Gearslutz and asking "which is the best DAW for making genre X?"
.......
I also disagree that Cakewalk should give up on softsynths, they have some great talent there. Z3TA+2 and Rapture are excellent. I also think it's a shame they don't produce more effect plugins because again they have a huge potential. Look at the CA-2A. The ProChannel needs a good quality delay module baked in (can't understand why it doesn't come with one) and the Quadcurve could use mid/side processing. Loads of room for improvement. 

100% correct.
 
After using SONAR I also keep visiting the websites of other DAWs. Though not using much but installed ProTools LE, Studio One Artist, Cubase AI.. Got all these along with some of the Hardwares - either MIDI Controller or Audio Interface or USB MIXER .....  Which are the hardware [apart from Roland A500/800 pro] club SONAR Artist ??
 
This is a point SONAR reaches less new comers I believe.  When a new comer buys a I piece of hardware they get a DAW copy and they start with that. Crossgrade are done by
I. the experienced who studies compares eventually they start using multiple DAWs
ii. impatient users coming with an idea that 5 clicks for a beat, 4 clicks for Bass, 3/4 clicks for pad, record voice, 3 clicks for vocal effects (dropdown-chose-OK]  - SONG MADE !! Not good : Try another DAW, this DAW sucks.
 
Sometimes experienced users try to find work around, as they know what effort will be required to master another DAW. They ask for feature inclusion or improvement.
 
To hold this users required the stability, bug fixing on a regular basis. But at the same time newer features should be incorporated so that these users need not to switch to other DAW for certain tasks.
 
For new comers - more and more tutorials are required - not in text in 2016 an YouTube Channel - contributors are already there in this forum [knowledgeable, helpful ...] SWA - GROOVE3 for the experienced users who will pay for as they are earning from music, but not for the new comers. Because other DAW starters are gets this and new users of SONAR will think SOANR doesn't have the feature.
 
RAPTURE / DIMENSION should come up with more patches periodically. Everyone are not Synth programmer.
 
MIDI to be explained more, explored more - New comers will be overwhelmed if put to them systematically.
 
All the above are my personal view for this great DAW - SONAR.
 
Regards
Snehankur

Paul P

M@
Bugfixes do not need to appear regularly at all, that is....they can be released as soon as the releases/fixes have been tested extensively and are most likely NOT introducing new bugs!

Cakewalk relies on us to put the updates to hard use and discover the bugs.  Not saying that's bad since we're not forced to participate, just pointing out that the "extensively tested" part is done by us and the update must be released for this to happen.  So the sooner the better.  The introduction of new bugs (to us) is inherent in this way of doing things.

This is a key point that seems to be overlooked sometimes. As a practical matter, it's not possible to add new features to existing code without adding new bugs. By definition, if this were possible there would be no bugs in software. Companies do have "bug bashes" sometimes but, as has been said, advertising that your product is unstable doesn't make marketing sense. Of course this may be happening without us knowing but it doesn't appear so if people think that bugs aren't being addressed and are asking for the company to make explicit further effort. A compromise might be to have feature releases every two months or so.

 
This thread has been more than interesting.  I was going to express appreciation for Michael's (mettelus) post, but then read James' (sharke) and Snehankur's rebuttals to what I'd imagined, and it hit me that it all makes so much sense, that we're each coming at Sonar from a different direction, and that they're all valid.  Imagine the load this puts on Cakewalk developers.  Realizing this, I'd say they're doing a pretty good job !