joey90405
hello everyone
i have to thank all of you who responded to my question, i "think" i have it figured out (with your help)
thanks again from cold ass chicago.
jp

Welcome back. ;-)
 
But what was the solution? Might help others.
 
and sorry for the epic derailment.
 
That just happens when Lanes come up.

Beepster
1) Actually I did find that in X2 there was a bit of arbitrary Take Lane creation and maybe even in X3 but they seem to do what I expect them to now. Maybe it's different on your system but for me essentially with each new record into a track (using Comp record mode) a new lane is created UNLESS you record further down the timeline where there is no other data on the same track (so if there is no overlap).

 
I don't know for certain how the extra take lanes appear. I just know that I never, at any point in the song in question, either (a) recorded 15 takes of one section, or (b) explicitly asked to create new take lanes. But 15 take lanes there are (well, 12 now I deleted the empties).

For you, and I am not 100% certain on this, I think if you want to force your new take into the same lane (or a desired target lane) you can use the Record Arm button on the target Lane.

This is kind of the problem... we're forced to dealing with Take Lanes whether we want to or not. I don't want to have to open it up, pick a Lane, close it, start recording. I just want it to not make a ton of unnecessary ones, for whatever reason. I have no need for them 95% of the time. I'm not going to add this extra work into my flow. I've already picked the track to record to, having to pick a sub-track as well is wasting my valuable time.
 

I don't think I've ever used that option because as you say... unless you remove something manually or create a new lane manually, there is always going to be data in an auto generated Take Lanes.

 
Except I often delete things that I record, or undo the recording, or whatever. And the take lanes linger on. Again, I have no idea how it gets into this state, but it does, and it's a nuisance. Probably it's when I record something in one track and drag it to another track. I don't know why the old empty lanes don't always get reused.
 

3) Again, that would actually severely screw up my workflow. Flatten Layers totally doesn't exist anymore (and maybe it should for your style of workflow) but what you CAN do (and I do this often) is just use Flatten Comp then delete the original Lanes (well I do it a little different than that but the principle is the same).

But that's exactly the problem - I'm not comping anything, and I don't want to flatten or join any of my clips. If I was, this would work fine. But I'm not. 9 times out of 10 I have a bunch of sequential clips, end-to-end, sometimes crossfaded. I don't need take lanes or layers for this at all, but I can see a usability benefit in providing me with at least 2 lanes so that I can see the full boundaries of each clip clearly. There's no usability benefit in giving me 15 lanes where 13 of them are empty at any given point in my track.
 

5) I actually do record section by section (especially when I'm writing... I usually rerecord full takes afterward in new tracks) and I record WAY more than 5 takes per section.

I almost never record multiple takes per section. Occasionally I do it for solos, and we do it when I'm recording our vocalist. Otherwise, I almost always just record/undo/repeat until I get the section right. So I don't have anything to flatten. I just want it so that if I do have to open up the take lanes, I don't have 14 empty ones and have to scroll off the bottom to find the clip I'm working with.
 

Arrangement is simply awkward in Sonar in general [...] Biggest problem I though I see with arrangment is the fact Sonar gets FAR too cranky splitting and moving lots of data at once

 
Yup... I've complained about this at length in the past so I won't repeat myself here. But I do expect that my constant cut/copy/drag behaviour helps confuse the take lanes. It wasn't ideal with layers either but at least Rebuild Layers was just one click away and cleaned everything up instantly.
 

This is why IF I decide to go into "arranger" mode I try to work with as few clips as possible. [..] After the tune is flowing how I like I lock myself into that structure and retrack the finals and polish up any MIDI programming.

 
For me, life's too short to retrack everything. I'm learning that Sonar handles things better if I leave the crossfades to the end, at least. Fewer overlaps seems to mean fewer problems.
 

Again I don't see the big deal about bouncing after the record part and I'm not even sure how layers would be better.

Layers weren't better for MIDI in this case; this is mostly just an observation of how the layer/take lane concept metaphor doesn't work well with MIDI where there's an expectation to be able to build up the track bit by bit (which one doesn't often do with audio as you'd just be raising the noise floor).
 

I'm not sure what you're saying here. That doesn't actually make sense. Having multiple sections of clips in a lane would not affect the soloed comps or the comping function at all. If someone said that either they don't understand what's up or it was misconstrued. I literally don't know how to respond to that.

I'm saying that (a) the existing comp system expects to be able to solo one lane and mute the others - that's how Flatten Comp works. So it 'needs' to have these mute and solo options for each lane, and expects each take to be in a different lane (instead of reusing 2 lanes to minimise the vertical space).
 
I mean, if I do Flatten Comp on 2 different sections, the second flatten will mute the Comp lane created when I flattened the first section, breaking things. In fact I can't see how this is useful unless you use one of precisely 2 workflows - either you record the whole song then comp each track, or you record a section, comp it, then move on. (And even then you probably have to move the comp to the latest comp lane since it creates a new one each time, right?) Neither of those are how I like to work - because I'm not comping! - so I get all the downsides of these assumptions with none of the upsides. I'm being asked to 'comp as I go along' despite never wanting to comp at all.
 
It worked fine in layers, where comping was done on a per-clip basis. On the rare occasion where I might want to comp something, I can mute or isolate clips (or part of clips, at least back then) and that works fine. I can do that in a minimal number of layers too. Now, it's not exactly a disaster, I just leave Take Lanes closed and hope I never have to open it. It's just annoying that when I do have to open it, everything is a mess.

Okay... so I can't really go through and reiterate solutions or re highlight things I described but yeah... looking over your followups a lot of this is sounding like trying to force the old methods onto the new systems.
 
I know you don't know me from Adam and probably think I simply do not know what you're talking about but seriously I'm getting a very good picture of how you are trying to work. A lot of it is how I work except I am dealing with WAY more takes. In fact I've been trying to widdle down my workflow to be more like your 1-3 takes per section (by way of doing my experimental takes in "scratch tracks" then recording my finals in fresh tracks to create a pool of "keepers").
 
It's actually really easy to manage lanes and sections even using the Comp flow. If I were just doing a couple takes per section it would be easy freaking peasy to slap together my stuff. Actually nothing would really need to be done at all aside from promoting the clips if they were separated all the time. I could just swipe to get rid of the splits across all takes, promote the one I want then use the OLD crop edit features (accessed with the Smart Tool in the TOP half of the clip edges). Heck... even arrangement would be easier for me.
 
It's just too much to explain in text (but I made a good bugger of a try here and in other threads). I am now defintiely going to make an in depth vid of this all when I get a chance.
 
I guess the thing is, Kylo, that I already described a lot of the necessary workflows, workarounds and pitfalls/defiencies but without maybe actually you seeing it in action and/or getting it under your fingertips/into your workflow I can't really explain it effectively through the forum and of course as much as I'd like to I can't retype stuff that will just get lost in the depths of the forum archives.
 
Definitely vid worthy (and if you get a chance maybe a vid of the walls you are hitting would be helpful but please reread some of the stuff I wrote because you missed some points).
 
The one thing I can easily address is your final rebut in regards to the Solo action of the individual Lanes. I described multiple flows I use in the original comment but...
 
Even though we cannot solo more than one lane at a time (which is forced by the Flatten Comp procedure) what CAN be done is...
 
1) Unsolo the Flattened Comp Lane
 
2) Mute any Lanes and/or Clips that are still audible but unwanted (this can be an either/or situation... as in two ways to do it)
 
Point is once you flatten the comp that lane does not HAVE to remain soloed and there are various options to remedy the issues of unsoloing it. I described how I do it in a few ways. It's just a little finicky with LOTS of lanes/clips. In your case, due to the very minimal number of lanes/clips per section it would take no time to mute the clips/lanes as needed. This is actually more of a PITA for a take hound like I am who has to manage dozens of takes per section and I navigate it rather quickly these days.
 
So yeah... some of the stuff you want doesn't work and needs a feature request. Some is totally possible and actually easier but requires using the new tools/methods. Distinguishing between the two will make your recording and editing WAY easier.
 
I swear to DOG I am not trying to be contradictory here. It's simply a complex workflow that if you fight it things only get worse.
 
This will be my next vid I think and just hope that it helps people get the weirdo nuances of it all. I take it for granted maybe because I've simply done SOOOO much editing using it all it's second nature now. It was NOT an easy road... but it's an easy workflow.
 
Meh.
 
Cheers.

I've mentioned this before in other threads, but something else I do to keep from getting lost with Take Lanes and to keep myself organized is to record vocal sections of the song on different tracks.
 
For example, if Verse 1 and Chorus 1 are best sung and recorded together, I'll have a vocal track for V1-C1 Raw.  If Verse 2 and Chorus 2 are best sung separately, I'll have two more vocal tracks, V2 Raw, C2 Raw and so on.  When I'm done recording vocals, I clone each of those raw vocal tracks, mute and hide the originals.  I then go through the clones, auditioning the takes and assembling the vocal.
 
Probably more work, but it works for me:)

Beepster
Okay... so I can't really go through and reiterate solutions or re highlight things I described but yeah... looking over your followups a lot of this is sounding like trying to force the old methods onto the new systems.

 
Yes, probably. The old methods worked well and were simple. The new system does not work well for me.
 

It's actually really easy to manage lanes and sections even using the Comp flow.

 
But that's just it... I don't want the Comp flow, and shouldn't need it because I'm not comping. That's all there is to it. There's nothing to flatten. There are no splits to remove. I just want to be able to record some audio, maybe move it to a different track, and not have Sonar create a ton of empty Take Lanes for me. It should not be too much to ask and I should not have to work around it.
 

Even though we cannot solo more than one lane at a time (which is forced by the Flatten Comp procedure) what CAN be done is...
 
1) Unsolo the Flattened Comp Lane
 
2) Mute any Lanes and/or Clips that are still audible but unwanted (this can be an either/or situation... as in two ways to do it)
 
Point is once you flatten the comp that lane does not HAVE to remain soloed and there are various options to remedy the issues of unsoloing it.

 
Sure, I didn't mean to imply the problem was unrecoverable. I am just implying the system is ridiculous. Record some takes... do the comp... now fix things up, such as what happened to the lane with the previous comp, as now you have 2 separate lanes, one with the latest comp, one with the oldest one... maybe merge them, maybe stick them in a new track, maybe un-solo them and remove or mute the other clips and do this every single time...
 
Compare to 8.5, where you'd isolate the takes you want... then you're done. If you really wanted to bounce those things to a clip then you could, but it didn't then try and make assumptions about how you were using the other layers.
 
I mean, just look at it this way - the action 'Flatten Comp' on one section (eg. a Chorus) mutes that track for every other section of the song, whether it was previously the result of a comp or not.
 
How can that possibly be considered a good workflow? They've basically said, "we expect you to record the whole song, then comp it." Any other approach is a poor relation requiring manual fix-up after the event - and it needs doing again each time!
 
Anyway, as you realised in another thread, I am reaching the end of my tenure with Sonar. There have been too many changes like this which have made the product worse for people who don't use it in the way the makers intend, and no movement on the things that matter for me (such as arrangement that is actually usable). So I don't need assistance in how to whatever it is that you're trying to explain, but thanks. Maybe some other people will benefit.

@kylo... Thing is, for what it sounds like you want, it's really simple to acheive and although my experience with layers is limited to X1 layers (which I can only assume are the same as the 8.5 layers... maybe not) I think if you took some time to work WITH the new options instead of against them you'd have a much better time.
 
Auto splits can be completely avoided while recording using SoS.
 
"Promoting" entire clips is a single click task (which is actually much easier than the Layers methods from what I recall of them).
 
The ONLY thing that seems to be missing for what you want is "Flatten Layers" in the Lanes format so that all the clips populate empty areas of existing lanes and that can be done with a simple select and Shift Drag move. Perhaps the Bakers could include that to nail down that final aspect of the old workflow. I don't see it hurting anything if they did (from a design standpoint).
 
From my perspective you are making things MUCH harder on yourself but you've made up your mind so I won't go on about workflows. I track and edit INCESSANTLY the way you are describing (and many many other ways) and it's really simple. Actually what you are describing is literally the quickest/most problem free style of track/edit of the bunch... even using Comp Mode recording.
 
Seriously if I were doing what you are I would simply remain in Comp mode (even though SoS would avoid splits altogether while recording IIRC), open lanes, swipe once to remove any and all incidental splits at the end of the clips (again can be totally avoided by recording in SoS but it's such a MINOR thing to correct it's not worth switching modes and really only needs to be done if there is noise at the end of other clips) then simply click in the bottom half of the desired clip to "Promote" the clip I want to be heard.
 
Seriously the swipe takes half a second but the time saved by being able to just click a clip to make it audible while muting the others completely DESTROYS the time needed to do the same task in the old workflows. DESTROYS it! And of course isn't even necessary if the correct record mode is chosen (which to me would take MORE time than just a simple swipe... even though it takes half a second. I just don't like having to remember what mode I'm in while tracking).
 
You don't even have to use flatten or any of that crap if your takes are good. Just click in the bottom half of the click you want to use. Don't even worry about the Solo/Mute/Flatten/etc crap. Insanely simple to do. I only use comping because I micromanage my takes... sometimes down to a single note.
 
If you're gonna bail on Sonar over this all I can say is you are making a mistake because what you are saying you want to do is literally some of the easiest editing possible if you know the tricks. I highly doubt any other DAW makes it easier.
 
If you have other issues then sure (the arranger thing is a biggie) but I do not see how simple one click editing like that can be made any easier/faster.
 
Whatevs... good luck to ya whatever you do but you're missing out on some really convenient stuff over some simple misunderstandings about the workflow.
 
Cheers.

KylotanBut that's just it... I don't want the Comp flow, and shouldn't need it because I'm not comping. That's all there is to it. There's nothing to flatten. There are no splits to remove. I just want to be able to record some audio, maybe move it to a different track, and not have Sonar create a ton of empty Take Lanes for me. It should not be too much to ask and I should not have to work around it.

 
I AGREE 100% That says it all.  Plain and simple.  That's why I said there should at least be an option to disable "Take Lanes" COMPLETELY!!!!!  If they make it an option,  then those who love that workflow can still use it,  and those that don't can disable it COMPLETELY.  
 

Beepster
Seriously if I were doing what you are I would simply remain in Comp mode (even though SoS would avoid splits altogether while recording IIRC)

Yes, I'm not going to touch Comp mode because it deletes/silences previously recorded audio I want to keep.
 

[...]then simply click in the bottom half of the desired clip to "Promote" the clip I want to be heard.

I don't need to promote a clip - there is precisely one clip there, and I can already hear it. What I don't want is the ton of extra empty take lanes that Sonar makes in the process.
 

Seriously the swipe takes half a second but the time saved by being able to just click a clip to make it audible while muting the others completely DESTROYS the time needed to do the same task in the old workflows. DESTROYS it!

 
You may be right, but since I don't have to perform this task, this benefit is irrelevant. I am almost never comping.
 
Not that I'm entirely convinced anyway - dragging to create a split and clicking to promote doesn't seem any different than dragging to isolate a clip, as it worked in the days of layers. In fact now it seems like there's an extra click.
 

If you're gonna bail on Sonar over this all I can say is you are making a mistake because what you are saying you want to do is literally some of the easiest editing possible if you know the tricks.

 
I'm not trying to edit anything! I'm not trying to comp anything, or choose from different takes. All I want, is to occasionally be able to see overlapping clips in a reasonable way, so that I can (a) fine-tune crossfades, or (b) fix up mistakes I made during copy/pasting. This would be easier if Sonar didn't throw in 10 empty lanes from time to time!
 
But no, this isn't why I'd bail on Sonar. The main reasons I'd bail on Sonar are:

• Poor arrangement support. No dedicated features for it, workarounds like Matrix View barely work, and copy and paste has also been made more awkward by the way take lanes and track folders work. I've put up with it for years but have decided life is too short.
• Bugs and regressions in the new monthly updates. I like getting monthly updates. What I don't like are the new monthly bugs - Drum Maps dropping notes one month, drum maps not working at all another month. Automation switching on randomly one month, can't drag MIDI to the desktop another month. Yet I feel compelled to upgrade each month just in case one of the older bugs has been fixed, like the plugin menus getting confused, or track templates screwing with drum maps, or whatever.
• No confidence that the direction of Sonar is aligned with mine. This does relate to the comping workflow... and the ProChannel... and the Drum Replacer... and the lack of arrangement facilities... and most of what's been delivered this past year. Because to me, it says "Sonar is aimed at studio engineers and people who record and mix bands". People who record full takes of a song, fix them up, then work on a virtual console (with virtual vintage gear) before shipping off a mix. That's not me. So, if this is the direction they're going, I have to respect that, and find a tool that is more closely aligned with how I want to use music software.

Beepster
 
Seriously the swipe takes half a second but the time saved by being able to just click a clip to make it audible while muting the others completely DESTROYS the time needed to do the same task in the old workflows. DESTROYS it! And of course isn't even necessary if the correct record mode is chosen (which to me would take MORE time than just a simple swipe... even though it takes half a second. I just don't like having to remember what mode I'm in while tracking).

Just picking up on this one point...while I understand the logic, I don't agree with the conclusion: it's now too easy to accidentally mute/promote and wonder what's going on, which leads to a more painful experience overall.  Manually being in control was still pretty quick (Ctrl-K IIRC to mute) and didn't leave you scratching your head and swearing at the computer (well, not for that reason anyway :-)).
 
Losing the easy ability to stack and crossfade clips within layers for artistic purposes is also another disadvantage of the new method of working.

@Kylo... re: "This would be easier if Sonar didn't throw in 10 empty lanes from time to time!"
 
Not going to go through your whole post again (but really I work section by section as I write as well and often times during my final tracking... it works totally fine for me). However that comment raises a red flag that something is wrong. There should not be empty lanes getting added and certainly not that many. I was going under the assumption you were talking about empty space in populated lanes. Just tons of empty lanes is not something I've ever experienced in my workflow.
 
So either something is going on with your install and/Sonar config or something is being done to create the empty lanes. One way I could see that maybe happening is if you are deleting unwanted clips/takes in the parent track as you record instead of using "Undo". As I track I Undo every take I know I screwed up and the new lane + Clip are removed (and the previous take is promoted again).
 
Anyway... I'm not going to spend time trying to change your mind. I just think in your case, now that I have a better idea of how you work/want to work all it would take is some minor workflow alterations and you'd be zooming along.
 
As to the other stuff I could recommend/point out a bunch of stuff but yeah... feeling like a bag of smashed artichokes today and it seems pointless. Good luck with whatever you end up doing. If you DO decide you want to try to sort out your Sonar workflow I'd be happy to help.