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2016/02/26 16:21:44
Beepster
jbow
Thanks Kenny. I am going to go with it. What you say makes a lot of sense and I was reading earlier, ezine maybe.. (short term memory is whacked!) that if you don't like something about the master you get from Landr you can go back into Sonar, remix a bit and then redo the Landr master.
It really does sound like a good tool for learning... and for helping us make better music and hey, it's only money! LOL.
 
I went to their site and listened to the samples they have there in the different genres. Some I liked, some I thought were a bit to much high end and well, too much everything. Others sounded pretty good. I think the ones I liked were probably done on Low. I had to lower the volume on a couple and some genres, if you turn the volume up on the original and down on the Landr mastered there is little difference. I finally just set the volume on the OC at noon and just listened. I guess it comes down to what you like and in the end it is a good tool, at least for me... but what would McCue say?  
 
 
I certainly can see it helping me and anyone to get unstuck. Going to update now. I think I am going to backup my C drive and move my Studiocat to Windows 10 this weekend too... maybe, lol.
 
You really are helpful to me. Thanks again.
 
Julien




Hi, Julien. You may have already read this but just in case you haven't... you can still use the LANDR service without having to install their app or export directly from Sonar. You can just upload the file directly to their site.
 
To avoid the LANDR app being installed on your system if you use CCC (which I don't) use the "Verbose" install version which supposedly allows you to deselect the LANDR app.
 
If you are an offline intaller like me do an Advanced install and deselect the LANDR install option in whatever window it appears.
 
That is likely very vague because I have not installed (or deslected) this thingie yet so that's just what I've gleaned from other user reports.
 
Then I guess you just upload to their site manually like you would with Soundcloud or other file services (create an account and use their online uploader).
 
The only inconveniences with that method are that you cannot export directly to the site from Sonar's File > Export dialog and I guess that you'd have to open your browser and navigate to their site.
 
Knowing you as I think I do though those are minor procedures compared to some extra thingamadoodle floating about your system.
 
Just sharin' what I think you might want to know.
 
Cheers.
2016/02/26 16:22:31
charlyg
I dunno, I'm still a noob, but I know the sound I  am after. With Ozone, I pick a preset in the "genre" of the song, and go from there. After finding a good preset, I tweak a bit. With the knobs set by the preset, I have a ref point to put them back if needed.
 
I have better finished product ears than how to get there ears........so I'm gonna give LANDR a shot.
2016/02/26 16:25:36
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
I totally hear you. I am the same way about pay as you go services that I don't use. Although I've had rhapsody for over 10 years and hardly use it enough to justify my subscription :)
However with Landr you can go fully ala carte if you don't want to pay a monthly charge. Just pay for one off masters only if you want to - I would use it that way personally since I don't generate enough music worth mastering!
2016/02/26 16:54:08
javahut
Just embedding the option for LANDR in the Platinum version of Sonar speaks volumes. I don't care what Anderton or any of the Cakewalk big shots say (and you have to question why they're being so adamant and almost defensive about it), no professional or semi-professional or even serious sound hobbyist cares anything about LANDR. Sticking such an amateur, unproven, newb service portal into what's ostensibly a serious DAW is... misguided at best. I'm actually a little ashamed of using Sonar now. How can you expect to be seen as a professional DAW, when you drop in such a joke of a service. It belongs in an Android or iPhone app. Not a top-tier DAW.
 
I don't care how many times you say it... anyone you have mixing your song, that doesn't know how to get decent levels and EQ quickly for session demos... you would NOT want mixing your song. All of the variables in just mixing are much harder to achieve correctly than a rough master at a decent level.
 
This is aimed squarely at amateurs that have no idea how to get the song they just "mixed" to sound anything close to being "like the radio", or "like a CD". As such... it has no business whatsoever being in the top-tier version of Sonar by default.
 
I'm glad I ran across this before I had a chance to update. At the very least... this should have been an option that defaults to NOT install... to opt into. Not default installation in your highest price point DAW version.
 
I repeat... seriously unprofessional service, seriously unprofessional implementation, seriously unprofessional priorities by Cakewalk and Roland, if they have any intention of trying to appeal to a professional market. But then again... all the serious millions/billions are in economy of scale rather than boutique, well made products for professionals.
 
...just so you know how to count my vote.
2016/02/26 17:13:30
kennywtelejazz
jbow
Thanks Kenny. I am going to go with it. What you say makes a lot of sense and I was reading earlier, ezine maybe.. (short term memory is whacked!) that if you don't like something about the master you get from Landr you can go back into Sonar, remix a bit and then redo the Landr master.
It really does sound like a good tool for learning... and for helping us make better music and hey, it's only money! LOL.
 
I went to their site and listened to the samples they have there in the different genres. Some I liked, some I thought were a bit to much high end and well, too much everything. Others sounded pretty good. I think the ones I liked were probably done on Low. I had to lower the volume on a couple and some genres, if you turn the volume up on the original and down on the Landr mastered there is little difference. I finally just set the volume on the OC at noon and just listened. I guess it comes down to what you like and in the end it is a good tool, at least for me... but what would McCue say?  
 
 
I certainly can see it helping me and anyone to get unstuck. Going to update now. I think I am going to backup my C drive and move my Studiocat to Windows 10 this weekend too... maybe, lol.
 
You really are helpful to me. Thanks again.
 
Julien




Hang in there Julien ,
 
The thing that I haven't said the whole time is the most obvious thing ....at least to me ...
The song that I posted would be an impossible song for a fixed rate algorithm to master correctly ..
Unless I submitted a perfect file for it to render . we all know that didn't happen
 
I have no clue as to whether LANDR   analyzes  at a fixed rate for the whole song file and makes a decision based on that or if it has the ability to adapt itself to an ever changing sonic terrain ...
 
A traditional Mastering Engineer would certainly have the ability to take 5 to 12 songs + and be able to make a cohesive arrangement of tracks and have all the songs sounding like they all belonged together as an album / CD
 
My song on the other hand equals something like 20 to 40 something + parts / musical motifs  where the instrumentation is changing something like every 10seconds + ....in some cases less , in some case much more ....
For an automated Mastering service I think that is asking a lot ....It's not like I threw it a perfect Mix
Yeah Igot a long ways to go before I can even think of using the word mastering
I'm happy that in my current situation I have the ability to use LANDR   as a mixing / learning tool ..
 
The 192 bit rate is good enough for me right now ...LANDR made it clear to me that I have a lot more work to do ...
I'm cool with that J
 
Kenny
 
2016/02/26 17:42:23
Anderton
javahut
Just embedding the option for LANDR in the Platinum version of Sonar speaks volumes. I don't care what Anderton or any of the Cakewalk big shots say (and you have to question why they're being so adamant and almost defensive about it), no professional or semi-professional or even serious sound hobbyist cares anything about LANDR. Sticking such an amateur, unproven, newb service portal into what's ostensibly a serious DAW is... misguided at best. I'm actually a little ashamed of using Sonar now. How can you expect to be seen as a professional DAW, when you drop in such a joke of a service. It belongs in an Android or iPhone app. Not a top-tier DAW.
 
...just so you know how to count my vote.

 
With respect, I count your vote as not understanding what this is about. I take it you assume that this is supposed to replace a mastering engineer, and people are supposed to master their music with it. That is just one aspect of what this is about. It is a tool that can be used in many ways. Mastering music with LANDR doesn't interest me at all. Yet as a professional mastering engineer who's made good bucks from same, I am still glad it's here, for reasons I've explained in the eZine and in forum posts.
 
I'm really tired of having to explain the same thing over and over and over again. Either people have looked into it, seen that it's more than a one-trick pony, and understand why it's useful, or they don't. You don't, and that's fine. I'm not going to argue with you, but I am going to take advantage of this tool in a way that is appropriate for me. And it doesn't involve mastering peoples' music with it. 
 
Oh, and get used to it. Bitwig and Studio One are next. Apparently they've figured out why it's useful as well.
2016/02/26 17:44:22
kennywtelejazz
irvin
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
cparmerlee
I do think it illustrates a fundamental dilemma.  While LANDR did some good things to the recording, it seems to have perked up the hi frequencies that exaggerate the finger noise.  That is very much a matter of artistic taste.  Some people might see that as an improvement.  Others might think that is a step backwards.  And there is nothing you can do about it.  One either accepts the LANDR results or else you throw the whole thing away.  That isn't a proposition that appeals to me.
 
I very much like the idea of software helping me to make better judgments.  I hate the ide of software putting me into a box.



Well its a simple thing to adjust what Landr masters in this case. Just put a eq notch on the frequencies that you don't want on the guitar bus to compensate that and redo the master. There are a few things you can do outside the box, including using Lander to master stems and then mix them together. There are many ways to skin a cat (figuratively, I love my two cats!)


Doesn't the theory go that the people who might find LANDR useful would not know how to 'put an eq notch on the frequencies that you don't want on the guitar bus'?



What is the genuine pay off you think you are getting for being like this ? Have you thought it through ?
 
Kenny
 
2016/02/26 18:22:29
Anderton
irvin
Doesn't the theory go that the people who might find LANDR useful would not know how to 'put an eq notch on the frequencies that you don't want on the guitar bus'?



I had an epiphany while reading Irvin's various exchanges. Everybody's opinion is right about LANDR...depending on how they define "mastering."
 
Here's an analogy. Years ago, TEAC came out with the 3340 4-track recorder that could do overdubs, and people started putting studios in their homes. They would say "I have a recording studio" because that was the only term that existed. Professional studios got all bent out of shape. "Those aren't REAL recording studios!!" Then someone coined the term "home studio," and Marty Porter of EQ magazine coined the term "project studio," which was more about doing actual projects than just having fun recording at home. Now we had terms that accurately described different types of recording studios. If someone said "I have a home studio," no professional got bent out of shape.
 
It is indeed true that mastering used to be an incredibly difficult discipline, because working with vinyl demanded it. Every decision was a compromise. Digital audio has eliminated most of those constraints, and it no longer became necessary to have the same kind of esoteric knowledge or training - just really good ears, good acoustics, and the knowledge of how to use tools like dynamics control and equalization. 
 
As the LANDR site itself says, "The polish and balance achieved through the subtle adjustments of a skilled mastering engineer is not something we would ever diminish." They also said in their press release that LANDR is not intended to replace professional mastering engineers, but complement them.
 
Those who are dissing LANDR should take the preceding paragraph at face value, and keep reading.
 
It used to be that all recording was done by professional musicians in professional recording studios using professional engineers, producers, and mastering engineers. The world is no longer that way. There are millions of people recording audio on everything from old iPhones to TASCAM hand-helds to flip-cams to 2" 24-tracks they maintain lovingly.
 
For years I've differentiated between two types of mastering. One I call "Mastering with a capital 'M'," defined as mission-critical work that affected a career, and needed to be done by a pro mastering engineer with a solid track record and preferably, a boatload of platinum albums on the wall. 
 
If that's the only way you define "mastering," you will think LANDR is ridiculous, and I'm not going to argue with you because according to how you define mastering, you're right.
 
However as the world has changed, there is a need for what I call "mastering with a small 'm'." I define this as taking a mix and simply having it sound better after you're done with it than it sounded before. 35 years ago, bands didn't have web sites for posting their live gigs. Consumers didn't have iPhones they used to record their daughter's piano recitals, or GoPros to record weddings. Churches weren't recording sermons, and corporate presenters didn't record their presentations. Nor did musicians have an incredible array of affordable professional tools at their disposal, regardless of whether they had the ability to use all of them or not.
 
None of these people was going to hire a professional mastering engineer to do "mastering with a small 'm'." Sure, maybe they knew someone with a decent recording setup, who as a favor would tweak things a little bit and make them sound better. But by and large, they just lived with bad sound. 
 
If your definition of mastering also encompasses "mastering with a small 'm'," then LANDR has major validity.
 
Next topic: LANDR should not be in a professional DAW.
 
Let's get real: a professional DAW costs a few hundred dollars. It is within the range of everyone; SONAR Artist costs $99. Many people using this DAW will not know about mastering. They will be making music for themselves or their friends. They may write songs that would put Javahut's songwriting abilities to shame, but they don't know how to master, and there's no way they can afford a pro mastering engineer. They may still be trying to figure out how to mix.
 
So what are we to do? Tell them "go to hell"? That would seem rather rude. Why not give them a tool that doesn't cost them anything to try, and if what comes out is better than what goes in...who has a problem with that?
 
Now, let's suppose they do want to pay a mastering engineer to master their songs. My first question to any client is if they have a particular "sound" in mind, and they'll usually name a favorite recording. It would be much better if they would try the three different LANDR options and be able to say "We want to sound like [fill in the option]." Great, now I have frame of reference as to whether they want minimal processing or want to win the rock and roll arms race. (Granted, I will try to talk them out of it if the latter, but...ultimately the customer is always right.) 
 
I've given plenty of other examples during the course of these LANDR threads of how LANDR can help a professional mastering engineer educate their clients in order to avoid the back-and-forth that can sometimes occur, so I won't bother repeating myself. 
 
Tools are tools. They do nothing by themselves, it is up to the skill of an individual to decide how to apply it. You can use a hammer to kill someone, or build a shelter. The hammer doesn't care.
 
If you define "mastering" as meaning ONLY work done by a professional human being who is capable of making nuanced creative decisions, then of course you're going to diss LANDR. If you think of "mastering" as making something sound better than it did originally, LANDR is going to help a lot of people...including those professionals who care enough about their clients to educate them, because LANDR provides a powerful tool for education.
 
 
 
2016/02/26 18:27:11
MarioD
With all of the discussion in this thread I doubt that I will ever master mastering!
 
I just DLed the update and thus far I like what I see.  Landr is a tool that I doubt I will ever use.  One I am off line and two I do it myself however I can see where it would be valuable for some people.  For  example I started with EZMix for mastering, learned from it, and now it just sits there on my HD.  I can see others using Landr for the same thing. YMMV
 
 
 
2016/02/26 19:10:07
jbow
Beepster
jbow
Thanks Kenny. I am going to go with it. What you say makes a lot of sense and I was reading earlier, ezine maybe.. (short term memory is whacked!) that if you don't like something about the master you get from Landr you can go back into Sonar, remix a bit and then redo the Landr master.
It really does sound like a good tool for learning... and for helping us make better music and hey, it's only money! LOL.
 
I went to their site and listened to the samples they have there in the different genres. Some I liked, some I thought were a bit to much high end and well, too much everything. Others sounded pretty good. I think the ones I liked were probably done on Low. I had to lower the volume on a couple and some genres, if you turn the volume up on the original and down on the Landr mastered there is little difference. I finally just set the volume on the OC at noon and just listened. I guess it comes down to what you like and in the end it is a good tool, at least for me... but what would McCue say?  
 
 
I certainly can see it helping me and anyone to get unstuck. Going to update now. I think I am going to backup my C drive and move my Studiocat to Windows 10 this weekend too... maybe, lol.
 
You really are helpful to me. Thanks again.
 
Julien




Hi, Julien. You may have already read this but just in case you haven't... you can still use the LANDR service without having to install their app or export directly from Sonar. You can just upload the file directly to their site.
 
To avoid the LANDR app being installed on your system if you use CCC (which I don't) use the "Verbose" install version which supposedly allows you to deselect the LANDR app.
 
If you are an offline intaller like me do an Advanced install and deselect the LANDR install option in whatever window it appears.
 
That is likely very vague because I have not installed (or deslected) this thingie yet so that's just what I've gleaned from other user reports.
 
Then I guess you just upload to their site manually like you would with Soundcloud or other file services (create an account and use their online uploader).
 
The only inconveniences with that method are that you cannot export directly to the site from Sonar's File > Export dialog and I guess that you'd have to open your browser and navigate to their site.
 
Knowing you as I think I do though those are minor procedures compared to some extra thingamadoodle floating about your system.
 
Just sharin' what I think you might want to know.
 
Cheers.




Thanks Beep. I went ahead with CCC. I trust Cakewalk, it hasn't been a problem yet and frankly I do not know what Verbose install is. In any case, it installed and I don't even notice it. I like the new track tool. I made a project this afternoon with EZDrummer on the metronome track, Rapture Pro for a bass, and played around with some guitar... it worked as advertised, no problems. I look forward to trying out Landr and at 299 a year will probably bite the bullet and give it a full try for a year. I trust Cake, I was just confused by all the conflict but everytime there is something new and different a lot of people crap on it. Their dislike is in no way invalid but I am going to give it a try. I am ANYTHING but a producer, I am a guitarist/singer/songwriter. If I am not happy I will get Keni to master and pay him and REALLY... I would recommend Keni for anyone's mastering. Keni is GOOD and can use the money and he dn't charge much.... did I mention he is VERY talented? He was offered a position at Electric Ladyland Studios but refused in order to take care of his aging parents. He has both talent and character.
I would recommend him to anyone for god and affordable mastering... but I'm trying the Landr with a good attitude because I trust Cakewalk. Cake has given me NO reason to not trust them... now, I am not saying you said anything against Cake, I know you love them too!
 
J
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