isn't this essentially throwing the vocal out of phase ?

I've tried a lot of automated doubling tricks, Melodyne and otherwise - But for me a good ol' fashioned re-recording is still the best way.
 
I would think that most of us non-professionals can afford to do that. I am assuming your son is around, and the second recording session is always easier than the first. Just sing along with the first fully comped and tweaked version.
 
For a pro paying for studio time and a high-priced performer...Different story maybe.
 
I also think 40 ms is a bit on the high side.
 
There is a lot of info available online, but if  you are a book-buying sort of guy, I (and many folks) would recommend
Roey Izhaki's "Mixing Audio". The other book often mentioned in this forum is the more basic "The Art of Mixing" by David Gibson. Based on your question, you might find Izhaki's book very informative. It goes into great detail about exactly this sort of thing.

The Haas effect is the brain figuring out the left hear heard something earlier than the right, so the sound came from the left. It works over delays less than 1ms, which is a foot or less.
 
20ms at the speed of sound is the length of a hall, so this is not the cause.

jpetersen
The Haas effect is the brain figuring out the left hear heard something earlier than the right, so the sound came from the left. It works over delays less than 1ms, which is a foot or less.
 
20ms at the speed of sound is the length of a hall, so this is not the cause.

...I am not sure, but I think that this single aspect of the Haas effect -The early side sounding louder than the delayed side - May possibly transcend the Haas effect delay parameters. I need to reference my "Roey" again to see what he has to say about this. :)
 
Also, the Haas effect has a delay max of up to 35 ms, so that is close to where the OP is at.
A simple, definitive test the OP could do is switch sides and just see if the effect reverses.

rbecker
 
Also, the Haas effect has a delay max of up to 35 ms, so that is close to where the OP is at.
A simple, definitive test the OP could do is switch sides and just see if the effect reverses.

I had tried that when I was trying to figure out what was happening and yes the effect reverses.
 
Walt

It is simply creating  comb filter when you do this without detuning one of the vocals.  It is probably finding sympathetic frequencies in your room as well.  The sound will move from side to side depending on pan and delay times but you will likely also find spots where the vocal jumps out and also spots where it seems to get a lot quieter depending on the frequency.

Give it life, sing it a second time...
 

Bristol_Jonesey
I'm with Craig on this. Get your son to record a second track and then pan the 2.
 
I've always underwhelmed by any sort of fake doubling techniques. But make sure he sings it as close to the original as possible and watch the timing!! (More important than pitch in my estimation)

I appreciate all the comments and have Googled and studied the "Haas effect". Now I know. Thanks.
 
Now for the rest of the story. Normally I do the vocals when my son and I put together some material. Some times I do doubling of the vocals, but actually sing the second part. This was the first time my son did a vocal (plus harmony) on one of our recordings. It's a cover for "More today, than yesteday" by Spiral Staircase. He also did two Trumpets, two Tenor Saxes, and two Alto Saxes. When he left, I added Guitar, Bass, Organ, and Drums.
 
After doing a rough mix, I realized that his vocal needed to be fattened up a tad. I couldn't really ask him to come over and record a second part since he lives in Nagoya Japan and was visiting us last December. He will be renting some recording space in his home town so we can collaborate in the future, but for the time being, what I heard is what I had.

 
Now that I understand what was happening, I will try some of the suggestions in this tread. Any more ideas would be appreciated.
 
Thanks to all,
 
Walt

Well I tried some of the tips on this tread and it didn't really work out. It sounded to cheeeeeezey. (I think that's the technical term for the sound.) I had optimized the eq and dynamics. I didn't want to use a lot of reverb since I wanted the Vocal in front. I tried just using a single delay using a Blue Tubes Tempo Delay. That did the trick!
 
Live and learn...
 
Walt

I don't think doubling is cheesy.  I like it.  I normally do this:
 
1.  Sing the vocal twice.  Use Melodyne to get them close but not exact in pitch and timing.  Pan them 40% to 60% left and right.  I think it is better if one isn't always ahead and one always behind in time, because that sounds less natural.
2.  You can use Craig's trick to simulate singing the track twice.
3.  I also have the Abbey Road Reel ADT plug in and it is really good.
 
Psycho-acoustics say that the track you hear first will always seem louder.
 
PS Visit my website to hear what the doubling sounds like.  I don't think it sounds as heavy as what some people do, but it is all relative.

One of the things I dislike, personally, about a lot of these techniques, is the way they make the positioning of the vocal kind of ambiguous. By having vocal dupes panned around, you often end up with a vocal that doesn't seem to sit anywhere in particular in the stereo field.