Anderton

sharke
You want to remove a portion of time from the start of a song. You want everything within those measures to be deleted, and everything which remains to shift along by that number of measures to the left. This should be doable with a simple, hassle free, bug free and foolproof one click method.

I've been thinking about this, and I can't see how you could do this with one click. AFAIK you would at least need to tell SONAR:
 
1. If needed, the tool you want - presumably the Smart or Select tool. (If you currently had the Erase or Mute tool selected, that probably wouldn't be appropriate.)
2. The region you want to delete (probably a click+drag).
3. That you want the Delete Time function (probably a click+drag from a menu, or a keyboard shortcut).
4. Another click on OK to confirm.
 
I don't know how you would simplify this to one click. Even with a word processor, if needed you have to choose the right tool to select words, select the words you want to delete, then either go to a menu or use a keyboard shortcut to perform the actual cut operation. You also need to use a different shortcut to delete and not put something in the clipboard, compared to cutting and putting something on the clipboard. 
 

I'm probably exaggerating a little with the "one click" rhetoric. I see it more as a menu option in which a dialog comes up, much like insert measures or delete special. 
 
Another way to think of it is like this. Imagine you use Insert Measures to insert 16 measures in the middle of your project. You end up with an empty gap, right? Well now hit CTRL-Z to undo. Hey presto, those 16 measures are now gone and your project looks just as it did before the insert. If undo can achieve this, then why not a Delete Measures function? It's just the reverse of insert measures. 
 
Granted, it is a little more complicated since when you undo an Insert Measures action, there is no data in the new measures at the point of undo. But I remain certain that the Bakers can handle this intelligently. I still think it would solve a lot of complications to disable Delete Measures as long as there is any data in the region you want to delete. So as for things like audiosnap markers, pitch bend information, MIDI notes etc, well it would be up to the user to decide how to handle those things before carrying out the Delete Measures function. That leaves things like markers, time sig changes and tempo changes. So let's look at those in turn:
 
Markers: You may want to delete those and slide the rest over, you may not. Make it an option. 
 
Time Sig changes: As above. However, if you do wish to slide the remaining time sig changes and slide the rest over, it would be a simple case of taking the last sig change event in the region you're deleting, and adding it to the join after the delete has been carried out. After all, if it's the last time sig change in the deleted region then we can safely assume that, given your desire to preserve the time signatures of all proceeding measures, that the first measure after the region you delete must have the time signature of the last time signature event of the deleted region. 
 
I'll try and illustrate what I mean with a labeled example. Here I've marked off the section that I wish to delete with START and END markers at measures 3 and 8. Within those measures, I have inserted time sig changes of 6/8 and 3/4 (also marked). Note that the time signature at measure 8, the first measure after the region slated for deletion, is 3/4 despite there being no time signature event there to state it explicitly (of course).
 

 
Now here's what would happen after the measures are deleted. The last time signature change in the deleted section was 3/4, so that must be the time signature at the join. What was measure 8 is now measure 3, and Sonar has inserted a new time signature change of 3/4 there. 
 

 
I guess if they could also check to see whether the last measure before the join was also at 3/4, and if so, refrain from inserting a new time signature event since it would not be needed. 
 
Tempo changes: As above. Either you wish to preserve them as they are in absolute time, or you wish to delete the ones within the deleted measures and slide the rest over. 
 
So with a region completely clear of data, those would be the only options you would need, right? It's basically a "slide special" command. 

Okay...I'm pretty sure I've figured out the issue. I don't have an easy "solution," but I think I understand the logic that governs why Delete Hole behaves the way it does, and what's needed to make it behave predictably. I'll test some more this week, and if what I've found so far turns out to be correct, will write up a relatively simple workaround for the next "Friday's Tip of the Week."
 
(As a pre-emptive reply to those who are about to type "I don't want a workaround," yes, it's not what you want and yes, it's a workaround. But if I'm correct about the logic of what happens, at least you won't be left scratching your head as to why "unpredictable" things happen - you'll know, and can take steps to avoid them.)

Anderton

sharke
It's far more important that Sonar preserve time signature and tempo changes, given that it's a music creation program.

Maybe I'm just slow, but I still don't understand how SONAR would know where to re-place a time signature or tempo change event if it existed in an area that no longer exists. Kylotan presented one option, but then, someone could argue that groove pitch markers or MIDI program changes are equally important, and require their own pop-up menu..and then the "keep it simple and fast" option becomes much more difficult.

It may seem that "tempo change", "key signature change", "patch change", controllers, etc are simply events, but really they are boundary markers for properties of the music that remain constant between events. So the 4th measure after a tempo change event has the same tempo as the 3rd, 2nd, etc. With that concept, wherever some musical time is deleted, the following music should retain the properties it had before the deletion. Sonar already knows how to "chase" such events.
 
In any case, messing up the tempo wherever there is non-tempo-stretched audio would be a bad thing. Is it really worthwhile to leave open the options? If the tempo change is moved to the beginning of the remaining section and the composer doesn't want it for some special reason, they can delete it.

Sharke, wrote my response before seeing your explanation. Yeah, I didn't think one click was possible  but what you're saying makes sense and spells out an actual workflow of how this would work. However, don't put the feature request in quite yet...I think there may be a (hopefully) simple fix that would accommodate pretty much everything you want, except intelligent re-placement of the time signature. If that's the case, then doing the fix would make everything else work right, and it would (hopefully) be a simple matter to make the intelligent time signature replacement the icing on the cake. As I said, I need to do some more testing, but so far, so good.
 

I guess maybe what they could do is just incorporate this functionality into "delete special." Right now we have "delete hole" and I would challenge anyone to admit truthfully that this function worked exactly how they expected it to work when they first tried it. In fact if you look for references to Delete Hole on the forums, it's nothing but confusion and frustration (some of it from me probably, lol):
 
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=cakewalk+forum+delete+hole+site:forum.cakewalk.com
 
 

It has to also be said that Sonar does not handle time signatures during Insert Time/Measures very well either. Try the following in a new project:
 
1) Insert a clip of any kind at measure 5
2) Move the cursor to measure 5 and insert a time signature change to 6/4
3) Fire up the "Insert Time/Measures" dialog and uncheck "meter/key changes"
4) Click OK to insert one measure
 
You'd expect that clip to shift one measure of 6/4 to the right, correct? 
In actual fact it moves 4 beats to the right and is thus no longer aligned to a measure boundary. Sonar has inserted a measure of 4/4 instead of a measure of 6/4 like you'd expect. 
 
Next try the above, but with "meter/key changes" checked. Sonar inserts a measure of 4/4 and the clip is correctly moved to the start of measure 6, which is where the 6/4 event is now since you told Sonar to slide signature changes. 
 
So really there is no way to insert a measure of 6/4, retaining the original position of the 6/4 signature event and sliding the clips along by the correct amount. I really can't see how that would be the intended behavior. I think this is probably the root of all the unexpected behavior people complain about when inserting or deleting time in projects with time signature events. 
 
 
 

sharke
 
Another way to think of it is like this. Imagine you use Insert Measures to insert 16 measures in the middle of your project. You end up with an empty gap, right? Well now hit CTRL-Z to undo. Hey presto, those 16 measures are now gone and your project looks just as it did before the insert. If undo can achieve this, then why not a Delete Measures function? It's just the reverse of insert measures...

 
Undo just reverts the project to a previous state, as saved in RAM. It doesn't involve any detailed calculations as such.

sharke
It has to also be said that Sonar does not handle time signatures during Insert Time/Measures very well either. Try the following in a new project:
 
1) Insert a clip of any kind at measure 5
2) Move the cursor to measure 5 and insert a time signature change to 6/4
3) Fire up the "Insert Time/Measures" dialog and uncheck "meter/key changes"
4) Click OK to insert one measure
 
You'd expect that clip to shift one measure of 6/4 to the right, correct? 
In actual fact it moves 4 beats to the right and is thus no longer aligned to a measure boundary. Sonar has inserted a measure of 4/4 instead of a measure of 6/4 like you'd expect. 
 
Next try the above, but with "meter/key changes" checked. Sonar inserts a measure of 4/4 and the clip is correctly moved to the start of measure 6, which is where the 6/4 event is now since you told Sonar to slide signature changes. 
 
So really there is no way to insert a measure of 6/4, retaining the original position of the 6/4 signature event and sliding the clips along by the correct amount. I really can't see how that would be the intended behavior. I think this is probably the root of all the unexpected behavior people complain about when inserting or deleting time in projects with time signature events. 
 
 
 

It actually makes sense from an implementation standpoint, although it clearly doesn't do what you want it to do.  The time sig change happens at 6:1.000.  The measure is inserted before 6:1.000 so it is inserted before the time sig change.
 
To draw a parallel to a word processor.  Type a sentence and bold one word (not the spaces before it).  Now place the cursor directly in front of the first bolded character and type (insert) new text.  It is not bold because the formatting starts on that character and you are inserting text before that character.
 
Whether or not this is the behavior you want depends on whether or not your extending the previous section in 4/4 or extending the new 6/4 time sig.

Anderton
I agree that "real" ripple editing would be a useful feature. It's something I depend on in Vegas. I think one of the main problems with "Delete Hole" stems from a decision not to cut MIDI notes in the process.
 
In the spirit of full disclosure, it doesn't affect me that much. I always leave a measure at the beginning to allow for taking a "noiseprint" when mastering. And, my songwriting approach is more modular with grouped clips, so I just move things around on the timeline rather than cutting and such. (This is also why an Arranger function isn't that important to me, songs are created with arranging in mind.) However even though I don't need to Delete Hole often, when I do it takes effort to get it right.
 
So at this point rather than discuss what doesn't work I think it would be more productive to throw out some solutions. Here's a proposed workflow that hopefully wouldn't be too hard to implement.
 

• Change "Insert Time/Measures" to "Insert/Remove Time/Measures."
• Place the Now time where you either want to add measures going forward, or remove measures going backward.
• Specify the the number of measures, then specify add or remove. If remove, choose whether to Ripple Edit or just leave the measures blank.

 
If remove/ripple edit, the previous X number of measures prior to the now time and everything contained in those measures (and to keep this simple I mean everything, including things like program changes, time signature changes, groove pitch markers, tempo changes, etc.) would be removed and the hole would close up automatically. Again to keep this simple, if MIDI notes cross over the boundaries of the area to be removed, they would be split at the boundaries. 
 
This would assume you would do any "housekeeping" of elements you didn't want removed beforehand, e.g., place a time signature change, key change, etc. just before or after the hole.
 
Again, there's the standard caveat of "I don't know anything about code" but it seems this "meat cleaver" approach would be the simplest way to implement what people seem to want.

I think this is a great workflow.  The option should be added to quantify what's added or deleted by time/frames to assist those who are editing for video.
 
If the corner cases need to be accommodated add radio buttons for those at the bottom of the dialog (and make them persist at least in the project.)

vanceen
By coincidence, I spent an hour earlier this morning helping my son sort out a mess resulting from inserting four bars into the middle of a project with tempo map changes and automation.
 
I fear my attitude about this kind of thing is becoming less patient and more uncompromising. I don't care whether or not fixing these things can be given a good marketing spin. I don't even care if the coding is difficult. These are basic DAW functions. Having a way to easily get the desired result is essential to a DAW product.
 
I'm not one of these "SONAR sux!" trolls. At the risk of sounding corny, Cakewalk and SONAR have been part of my life for twenty five years. I'm fond of the product; I'm pulling for it. I'm happy with the changes that Gibson has apparently encouraged (or at least allowed), not least the contributions of the excellent Craig Anderton. But that doesn't stop me from saying that there are some long standing issues (already highlighted by others, better than I could) that really need attention soon.

Perfect! Totally agree!