vanceen
By coincidence, I spent an hour earlier this morning helping my son sort out a mess resulting from inserting four bars into the middle of a project with tempo map changes and automation.
 
I fear my attitude about this kind of thing is becoming less patient and more uncompromising. I don't care whether or not fixing these things can be given a good marketing spin. I don't even care if the coding is difficult. These are basic DAW functions. Having a way to easily get the desired result is essential to a DAW product.
 
I'm not one of these "SONAR sux!" trolls. At the risk of sounding corny, Cakewalk and SONAR have been part of my life for twenty five years. I'm fond of the product; I'm pulling for it. I'm happy with the changes that Gibson has apparently encouraged (or at least allowed), not least the contributions of the excellent Craig Anderton. But that doesn't stop me from saying that there are some long standing issues (already highlighted by others, better than I could) that really need attention soon.

To be honest, this thread is concerned with deleting measures from the timeline, not inserting.
 
I can't speak for anyone else but I've never had any trouble inserting blank measures into a project and getting everything else to move in sync.
 
It is *probably* user error.

Wow, this is one of those threads that really make you appreciate the Bakers and all the intricacies of software development and customer need & satisfaction :-)  and this aside from having to deal with O.S. changes and myriad hardware configurations and drivers!  I might add that the civility is refreshing - GOOD discussion.
 
After reading last night, my last thought before turning in was the screen I recall for the "interpolate" CAL script - LOT's of options (albeit MIDI).  However, that caused me to awaken this morning thinking about the OP and a possible simple & clean section (& hole) delete in it's simplest form could at the very least have basic options for things like markers, tempo, meter, etc.  Would these not be as simple as e.g. Meter a. maintain beginning state (4/4) b. maintain ending state (6/8)  c. maintain both in place (wouldn't get cut but remain at time placed)  d. maintain change at (insert M,B,T).  Could also be done for "insert measures".
 
Of course, while typing this.....what if you have 2 bars of 6/8 incorporated within the 8 bar selection?
 
Good luck CA - haha.  But seriously, improvement would be awesome!  Thanks for thinking out loud sharke

I've found times when the Insert Measures tool doesn't bother to shift all the tracks, just some of them. If I undo and repeat, it works properly the 2nd time. Just one more thing that makes me wary of trusting Sonar's large-scale edit operations.

Kylotan is right.  If nothing else they should simply have a track delete or insert extra measures and a global delete or insert extra measures.  :D

Bristol_Jonesey

vanceen
By coincidence, I spent an hour earlier this morning helping my son sort out a mess resulting from inserting four bars into the middle of a project with tempo map changes and automation.
 
I fear my attitude about this kind of thing is becoming less patient and more uncompromising. I don't care whether or not fixing these things can be given a good marketing spin. I don't even care if the coding is difficult. These are basic DAW functions. Having a way to easily get the desired result is essential to a DAW product.
 
I'm not one of these "SONAR sux!" trolls. At the risk of sounding corny, Cakewalk and SONAR have been part of my life for twenty five years. I'm fond of the product; I'm pulling for it. I'm happy with the changes that Gibson has apparently encouraged (or at least allowed), not least the contributions of the excellent Craig Anderton. But that doesn't stop me from saying that there are some long standing issues (already highlighted by others, better than I could) that really need attention soon.

To be honest, this thread is concerned with deleting measures from the timeline, not inserting.
 
I can't speak for anyone else but I've never had any trouble inserting blank measures into a project and getting everything else to move in sync.
 
It is *probably* user error.

It doesn't work properly when you have time signature changes. 

Maybe sonar bakers need a retreat to go over big picture items that are obvious oversights, I recommend the Berkshires in western MA.:D   :D It's almost as if the design has become too complicated.  This thread shows it beautifully.  We're composers and song writers, but most people here have to learn how to build software programs just to get what they need and want.  

sharke

So to recap, a "delete time" function should:
 
1) Delete ALL data in the area you specify
2) Move ALL data to the left to fill the gap. 
 
No nonsense, no worrying about tracks losing their relationship with each other, no manual selecting and dragging of clips, just the simple process as described in bold above, something which should be as simple as deleting a word in a word processor and having the remaining text reposition itself to fill the hole. Please! 

+1 +1 +1 +1....

Here's what I have to do now to get around this (it's clumsy, time-consuming and nearly but not quite perfect, but I have it down now):

- I place markers at the boundaries of the region to be moved or deleted (easier to select thereafter)
- I add dummy midi data to blank areas and boundaries in that region (sometimes I add dummy silent audio too)
- I select everything in all tracks (CTRL-A)
- I split all the tracks at the start and end section
- In tempo view I add a redundant tempo change right at the boundaries, just before and just after the splits (at both ends)
- In time signature I do the same as with tempo (very important to do both if there are tempo changes and time sig changes)
- I select all tracks again
- I select the timeline region between markers
- if moving the region I will first make all the selected clips part of one group
- then I use the Cut... dialog and make sure everything is checked off
- if moving, I first paste the clips sometime after the song and then revisit the problem of moving
- I cleanup and cross fade clips at the boundaries
- then I listen to see if it worked
- later I might deal with sudden tempo changes etc.

Basically the above steps should be automated and reduced to a few simple clicks.

Everything I mention above works, and it works every time if I am careful. There may be a step or two that are not necessary or whatever, but this is what I have learned to do over time.

I think an update here to handle this is a must.

VariousArtist

sharke

So to recap, a "delete time" function should:
 
1) Delete ALL data in the area you specify
2) Move ALL data to the left to fill the gap. 
 
No nonsense, no worrying about tracks losing their relationship with each other, no manual selecting and dragging of clips, just the simple process as described in bold above, something which should be as simple as deleting a word in a word processor and having the remaining text reposition itself to fill the hole. Please! 

+1 +1 +1 +1....

Here's what I have to do now to get around this (it's clumsy, time-consuming and nearly but not quite perfect, but I have it down now):

- I place markers at the boundaries of the region to be moved or deleted (easier to select thereafter)
- I add dummy midi data to blank areas and boundaries in that region (sometimes I add dummy silent audio too)
- I select everything in all tracks (CTRL-A)
- I split all the tracks at the start and end section
- In tempo view I add a redundant tempo change right at the boundaries, just before and just after the splits (at both ends)
- In time signature I do the same as with tempo (very important to do both if there are tempo changes and time sig changes)
- I select all tracks again
- I select the timeline region between markers
- if moving the region I will first make all the selected clips part of one group
- then I use the Cut... dialog and make sure everything is checked off
- if moving, I first paste the clips sometime after the song and then revisit the problem of moving
- I cleanup and cross fade clips at the boundaries
- then I listen to see if it worked
- later I might deal with sudden tempo changes etc.

Basically the above steps should be automated and reduced to a few simple clicks.

Everything I mention above works, and it works every time if I am careful. There may be a step or two that are not necessary or whatever, but this is what I have learned to do over time.

I think an update here to handle this is a must.

I don't think it needs to be anywhere near that convoluted. I do think I've found the issue that keeps complicating this, and so far the workaround is working. But I don't need to use it all the time either, only in some specific use cases. I'll tie all this together in time for Friday's Tip of the Week.

This reminds me of the "Clean Audio Folder" tool argument.
 
99.9% of folks just want to hit a button and remove unused audio files.
99.9% of folks start new projects with "Store Project Audio in its own Folder" - which is default.
(In fact I just noticed in Platinum there is no choice anymore anyway).
 
But then come the arguments: There could be old projects. The user could have done this. Or could have configured the system like that. So we have an inpenetrable tool that nearly everybody tries once and then gives up on. AND IT'S JUST HAD A BUGFIX IN THIS RELEASE!?!
 
Seriously.
 
I agree there are any number of special cases. But the vast number of pop/rock/blues songs have the same time signature and tempo throughout.
 
We are all adults.
 
In most situations, a pop-up warning explaining what happens if you cut out tempo changes etc, and to which you can say "don't show me this again", would be more than enough.
 
A simple, basic "Cut from here to here", maybe with an option or two to cover the most common corner cases, would be fine.
 
Look at some competing products. They don't make such a fuss.

Anderton

VariousArtist

sharke

So to recap, a "delete time" function should:

1) Delete ALL data in the area you specify
2) Move ALL data to the left to fill the gap. 

No nonsense, no worrying about tracks losing their relationship with each other, no manual selecting and dragging of clips, just the simple process as described in bold above, something which should be as simple as deleting a word in a word processor and having the remaining text reposition itself to fill the hole. Please! 

+1 +1 +1 +1....

Here's what I have to do now to get around this (it's clumsy, time-consuming and nearly but not quite perfect, but I have it down now):

- I place markers at the boundaries of the region to be moved or deleted (easier to select thereafter)
- I add dummy midi data to blank areas and boundaries in that region (sometimes I add dummy silent audio too)
- I select everything in all tracks (CTRL-A)
- I split all the tracks at the start and end section
- In tempo view I add a redundant tempo change right at the boundaries, just before and just after the splits (at both ends)
- In time signature I do the same as with tempo (very important to do both if there are tempo changes and time sig changes)
- I select all tracks again
- I select the timeline region between markers
- if moving the region I will first make all the selected clips part of one group
- then I use the Cut... dialog and make sure everything is checked off
- if moving, I first paste the clips sometime after the song and then revisit the problem of moving
- I cleanup and cross fade clips at the boundaries
- then I listen to see if it worked
- later I might deal with sudden tempo changes etc.

Basically the above steps should be automated and reduced to a few simple clicks.

Everything I mention above works, and it works every time if I am careful. There may be a step or two that are not necessary or whatever, but this is what I have learned to do over time.

I think an update here to handle this is a must.

I don't think it needs to be anywhere near that convoluted. I do think I've found the issue that keeps complicating this, and so far the workaround is working. But I don't need to use it all the time either, only in some specific use cases. I'll tie all this together in time for Friday's Tip of the Week.

Try it with lots of tempo changes, lots of time signature changes, and midi tracks that have empty data before, during and after the region.

Edit: and lots of small audio and midi clips inside the region (if moving rather than deleting)

Yep, it is that convoluted. If I reduce these steps (and I have tried) I often get burnt. So I do them all and it always works.

I hope you are right Craig, and can enlighten me. I respect your input and advice a lot (I still own one of your earliest books on MIDI from the early 1990's).

I tend to record a lot of music without a click track, and apply tempo changes and time signature changes after the fact. But when I start to arrange ideas I am bound to repeat the steps I mentioned above.