Your starting fader positions will also vary depending on the total number of tracks in your project.
 
As a rough rule of thumb, the formula is (in Excel) -20 x Log(total number of tracks)
 
So as an example, for a 15 track project, initial fader positions should be around (on average!) -23.5dB

Bristol_Jonesey
Your starting fader positions will also vary depending on the total number of tracks in your project.
 
As a rough rule of thumb, the formula is (in Excel) -20 x Log(total number of tracks)
 
So as an example, for a 15 track project, initial fader positions should be around (on average!) -23.5dB

I was told there would be no math.

They lied

Yet another reason to work with bus input gain instead, right? Fix it in one place.

vladasyn
Well- that is obvious, but not a solution. This is pre-recorded data, there is no reason for it to deviate in levels. Can you explain it? Yeah, I can lower it and give up on some volume. But I don't want to lower the entire song down because I have picks in 2 locations.

I don't know what "pick" means. However if you see a clip on a track either use a limiter or lower the volume on that track. I often lower all track volumes and bring each up as needed for a balanced mix. This is another reason I use a CS. 
 
It really doesn't matter about the origin of the audio. If it clips its too loud. 

Bristol_Jonesey
They lied

:-D
 
To the OP (vlad)... as has been noted multiple times in this thread there are far too many variables to expect the meters to respond EXACTLY the same way every time. That is because the audio is unlikely to output EXACTLY the same way every time except under extremely clinical scenarios where every possible variable has been eliminated.
 
By that I mean every effect, synth, EVERYTHING has been bounced to pure audio throughout the entire project so there is no possibility of variations FROM those plugs. Even then I'd still think in a complex project with many tracks the way the computer reads/rounds/processes it all might vary slightly.
 
Now if you had a single stereo wave with NO active effects and the meters still did this then sure, that would indicate maybe the meters or Sonar was doing something funky.
 
BUT, from what I can tell the track/bus meters aren't intended to be ultra hyper accurate (we can even incur that type of resolution). Just reasonably accurate guides to show what's doing what. So if you are pushing things so far that you are only leaving 0.00000001 db of headroom and the meters only respond to a resolution of 0.00001 db maybe that could account for the clip light being triggered every so often.
 
Expensive digital mastering software provides much more accurate metering resolutions if that's what you want.
 
Thing is all of this is completely moot because trying to make everything as loud as possible at all times by just turning it all up using the faders is NOT how this stuff is done.
 
General practice is to mix all your tracks and busses so your master output only reaches at most -3db. The amount varies though depending on who you ask and/or what you are trying to do. -6db to -3db seems to be about right.
 
Why? Because again, as noted above, getting those levels up to -0.1db is generally a "Mastering" process... as in you leave that to your Mastering engineer or you yourself apply it from the perspective of mastering your project either right on the Master bus or exporting your final exported mix then mastering the stereo wave in a new project.
 
There is LOTS of stuff that is either used to make up that extra volume in the mastering stage in a complimentary way (saturation, etc) or things like EQ where you simply need the extra room to boost a band if you need to.
 
BUT the most important "effect" is the limiter. You can completely not use all that other stuff if the mix is THAT good and simply raise the volume with a limiter and COMPLETELY avoid clipping.
 
So if you think your mix is absolutely perfect in every single way and that is EXACTLY how you want to release it you can put a limiter on you main output bus (Master bus) as the absolute LAST thing in the signal chain then set the output threshold to -0.1db (or even -0.0000001db if your limiter can do that... which it probably can't). That makes it so even IF for a split second something hits 0db or higher the limiter stops it from clipping the bus. Kind of like a simple overload protection.
 
Then you can turn up the volume as loud as you want and never clip. Ideally in that situation you would turn things up until the limiter just BARELY registers that it has been triggered then turn things down just enough so it doesn't activate at all (so the limiter doesn't do ANYTHING but is still there just in case something does go over).
 
Usually though you DO want it trigger at least a little (unless you have managed to mix the most perfect mix that ever done got mixed) to bring up the volume of everything below the peaks so that the song plays back nice and loud but there are no clips.
 
Some people SMASH the limiter to bring even the quietest sounds up and "squash" the dynamics to make EVERYTHING as loud as possible (which, IMO sucks... google "Loudness Wars"). They may also use other stuff before the limiter such as saturation/compression/levelers/etc like mentioned before to bring the volume up then only limit the signal a bit (or still smash it).
 
Point is... the limiter is there to stop any clipping whatsover but still allow you turn things up as much as you want. Doing this stuff like you are (just turning up the faders as loud as it will go) is unnecessary and counterproductive. Lower your levels right from your tracks through to the busses to leave headroom on your final Master bus THEN raise the volume using a limiter OR raise it with other master effects BEFORE a limiter.
 
In all cases the limiter's output is set a fraction below 0db which completely avoids all clipping while letting you to turn things up as much as you want.
 
BTW... I send EVERYTHING through a "Premaster" bus before it hits the Master bus. That way, even though I completely try to obey "Gain Staging" principals from start to finish if I somehow go over/under -3db a little I can just adjust the Premaster fader a bit (never need to except as a project grows... then I correct it in the mix). It's also a place where I can experiment with mastering effects such as EQ and Compression.
 
The ONLY thing on my Master bus is a limiter (usually the Concrete Limiter) as clip protection and it never gets triggered unless I do something stupid or I want to do an export at broadcast volume (in which case I adjust the limiter to turn up the volume so it is just barely being triggered then export).
 
I do my fake, crappy "mastering" in a new project on the stereo export (but make sure the limiter in the mix project isn't adding ANY volume at all... just operating as a clip protector... which isn't even needed because I gain staged it all to not clip anyway... usually).
 
 
There are much smarter, more experienced/concise people around here who could explain all that better (and correct any dumb crap I just fudged up).
 
tl;dr...
 
You're not gain staging properly.
 
Use Limiters to avoid clipping.
 
Cheers.

Even with a mastering limiter it's not always a great idea to go as high as -0.1. Some older cd player DA converters can still clip between peaks with values that high. 
 
In any case, again, this is not your concern. Definitely stay below -3dB if mastering is still to come. 

Sanderxpander
Even with a mastering limiter it's not always a great idea to go as high as -0.1. Some older cd player DA converters can still clip between peaks with values that high. 
 
In any case, again, this is not your concern. Definitely stay below -3dB if mastering is still to come. 

And I've been seeing it mentioned that mastering for mp3 iTunes type stuff -0.3db is the target for mastering...
 
and to vlad or others, that is -0.3db MASTERED... not the -3db I was talking about for premaster which is of course an entire decimal point shifted. Just making sure that's clarified.
 
I am still learning though. ANYTHING I post needs to be researched and tested by the reader.
 
I cannot emphasize enough that anything I post about mixing/mastering/general audio concepts and the like is not complete and utter "TROOF". Just stuff I've read that seems to have a consensus, came from reliable sources and/or have tried out myself.
 
I am bloody well NOT a mastering engineer (and barely a mixing engineer). That actually is probably the MOST important reason for leaving headroom on a mix. You just never know what the Mastering engineer will need to do and may need that full -3db or more of headroom to polish up your mix. Maybe he won't and can just raise the volume with the limiter.
 
Leaving that headroom leaves them options though.
 
Then again (and this shows exactly WTF I know... or more accurately DON'T know) it seems they (the mastering engineer) could just turn down the volume on the file if there is not enough headroom (so "normalize" to whatever they need like -3db) then do whatever they want from there. I'm guessing that is undesirable somehow though otherwise we wouldn't still be encouraged to keep that headroom available from the get go.
 
Maybe that's just the Mastering community's sooper secret way of keeping us spazzos from incurring tracks or sub group busses from clipping so they don't have to clean up the noise.
 
Or they could just be, as the Brits say, 'avin' a laff.
 
lulzity

The meter frame size is 40 ms. You can make this value smaller in the Configuration File, but the smaller you make it, the more you're demanding from your CPU for a questionable (at best) benefit.
 
Kylotan's suggestion of using a single gain trim is the simplest solution. Quick grouping all faders and reducing them is another option. But if you want maximum level, don't do it the DAW; leave headroom, and squash the dynamics when mastering, if that's what you want.

Let me say that I am nowhere at the professional level. I produce, mix and master myself and only my own music. I have a lot of experience- been doing it since 2000, so about 15 years, but only my music, so nothing to compare with. With that said- one can do the same thing for 20 years and never progress unless somebody else shows him/her the new tricks of the trade.
 
I do not understand the concept of mixing under -3. Are you serious- that would make my tracks sooooooo ridiculously low!
 
I do not have mastering professional to turn to. I master with Izotope Advance. I do not have it for that long, so I just use presets. I listen the presets, pick the once that sound the best to my personal ears and I go with it. I use the same mastering preset on every song for the album, to keep my songs matching. So I start new project, put Izotope Advance as effect on the Master bus. Then I import stereo track of mixed left+right song, and this is it. I love how the Izotope makes my songs sound great. The only thing is even with this approach, all my songs always sound lower than industry standard. And I am ok with it.
 
Now at mixing stage... why have it -3? This makes no sense. Ok, if you say, -0.3, yeah, I would agree, but not -3.
 
I have many tracks in each song. average- 70 tracks. The do noyt play at the same time, all 70, usually 5-6 tracks playing at a time, different parts- different tracks. It takes long time to make the balance between instuments work. Nothing stands out, nothing overpowers, everything just like I want it to be. Now Vocal tracks often have PEAKS- especially my vocal tracks. I think I have some kind of compressor on input, but may be not. So I do not want to lower the entire vocal track just because one part has a peak. So I ride the fader and make it drop at that point. The problem is that sometime don't matter how far (-20) I lower this part, something still clipping, and I don't know what. Frustrating part is that when I think all peaks are under zero, I then play from beginning, and something is clipping AGAIN. But effects explanation is satisfying, this is probably what happens. Can I use a limiter just on one vocal track? Because I usually use compressors, not limiters- I thought this is what you supposed to treat peaks with. On master, I think Limiter almost always a part of a preset.