I dont want just have a library of loops, i want to be able to build loops from the ground up

I agree such things are easier/more intuitive with Fl, but it's pretty simple to do in Sonar.  FL does not have much in terms of building loops that Sonar does not have. The basic default structure is step sequencer integrated with basic sampler on each channel. Like Sonar, editing can also be done on piana roll. To set up something similar one could Build a template with multiple instances of dropzone and or combinations of dropzone and and Session Drummer 3 and step sequencer.  The only thing FL has that would be super labor intensive to replicate would be loop mangling plugins like Grossbeat.  

Sonar already have good tools like Audiosnap, Grooveclip and the Matrix to build an play loops. Especially the "Matrix" is a very nice tool to create beats and patterns with audioclips.
 
_Markus
 

dubdisciple
I agree such things are easier/more intuitive with Fl, but it's pretty simple to do in Sonar.  FL does not have much in terms of building loops that Sonar does not have. The basic default structure is step sequencer integrated with basic sampler on each channel. Like Sonar, editing can also be done on piana roll. To set up something similar one could Build a template with multiple instances of dropzone and or combinations of dropzone and and Session Drummer 3 and step sequencer.  The only thing FL has that would be super labor intensive to replicate would be loop mangling plugins like Grossbeat.  

I don't feel that this is the case at all.  It's not all that simple in Sonar, especailly compared to some of the tools in FL or other DAW's.  Tools like Dropzone,  Cyclone and Session Drummer all are quite limited.  Dropzone only supports two sounds, and no editing and limited ADSR.  Cyclone does has 16 pads, but only supports WAV, and the editor is really hard to use, Session Drummer has no ADSR or looping features.  I think a basic sampler that can do at least what Simpler/Sampler, DirectWave, or EXS24 can do should be included in Sonar at least for basic use, without having to shell out for Kontakt.
 
Splitting samples into beats is pretty cumbersome, too.  IIRC, you have to get Audiosnap, then cut and trim, and then finally move each beat into a sampler.  Contrast that with most DAW's where it automatically does this for you and creates an instrument track with your split beats in it and creates MIDI to trigger it. 
 
I'm not saying you can't do it in Sonar, it just seems to me, and it has for a long time, that the tools that we have in Sonar seems archaic and vastly underpowered to what other competivive DAWs are offering right now.

forkol
Splitting samples into beats is pretty cumbersome, too.  IIRC, you have to get Audiosnap, then cut and trim, and then finally move each beat into a sampler.  Contrast that with most DAW's where it automatically does this for you and creates and instrument track with your split beats in it and creates MIDI to trigger it. 

 
I know some other DAW's like Pro Tools or Studio One, and none of them can automatically split, cut and trim samples to a beat you want.
 
And don't forget Sonar Matrix to play the beats, combine them, midi trigger them etc.
 
In Sonar it's really very easy to cut, split and trim samples. For most basic trim- and looping, Audiosnap is not neccesary. A few simple steps with tab key and the smart tool can do very much. Drag and drop to Matrix and you're ready to play and trigger.
 
But yes, FL is more focused on loops and beats and maybe contains some more specialized tools.
The last what I want from Sonar is to become a FL clone.
 
Maybe check out some third party tools. Transfuser from Air Music is a very powerful tool to play and mangle audioloops and is available as VST plugin.
 
_Markus

mdages
 
I know some other DAW's like Pro Tools or Studio One, and none of them can automatically split, cut and trim samples to a beat you want.

 
Actually, ProTools can, you use Beat Detective to do that, then you can drag the whole lot into Structure, already all key mapped.  Which is still better than Sonar.
 
Studio One I can't tell, but at least you can split clips manually and then drop into Impact, which has effects and filters per pad, and supports 16 pads.  You would need at least 8 Dropzones to do the equivalent.
 

And don't forget Sonar Matrix to play the beats, combine them, midi trigger them etc.
 
In Sonar it's really very easy to cut, split and trim samples. For most basic trim- and looping, Audiosnap is not neccesary. A few simple steps with tab key and the smart tool can do very much. Drag and drop to Matrix and you're ready to play and trigger.

 
If that's all you want to do, yes.  But most producers want to add effects, trim start/end times, set loop points, apply ADSR envelopes to individual sample pads (especially drumpads!).  I guess you would have to set separate tracks, or at least, do clip effects, which is much more cumbersome and time-consuming.
 

But yes, FL is more focused on loops and beats and maybe contains some more specialized tools.
The last what I want from Sonar is to become a FL clone.

 
I'm not saying to make it a clone, all I'm asking is to get at least to the level that other major DAWs are at.  Cakewalk was headed in the direction when it developed Beatscape, but it was only half-finished, and then dropped.  They can bring that back, add some basic looping/editing functions and add some basic effects.  Then I would create a feature addition to Audiosnap that would automatically split on Audiosnap markers and create an Instrument track with this instrument on it.
 

Maybe check out some third party tools. Transfuser from Air Music is a very powerful tool to play and mangle audioloops and is available as VST plugin.
 
_Markus

Of course, I've done that.  I have Komplete as well as some of FL's tools like Edison and Slicex added to Sonar.  But I still think that Sonar should be more competitive in this regard. 

Pro Tools Beat Detective is a good tool, but not a full automatic loop maker. It's more like Audiosnap.
And Structure, omg, worked with it for several years and imo also really cumbersome. Btw, Structure is a third party program by Air music and can be bought as a VSTi plugin for Sonar too.
 
Studio One's Impact is nice and easy, but also very basic and limited.
 
In Sonar you can also split clips manually very easy and put them on to the matrix by drag & drop. Each row in matrix can be routed to different outputs and you can use any vst fx on them. Very easy to do, but yes, no so powerful like a real drumpad beatmachine as NI Battery or Machine.
 
Cakewalk could do some features in that area better, but I don't think they want Sonar to be a competitor to NI Machine or Air Transfuser.
 
Do you want that Sonar become a beat machine, or do you want Sonar should be bundled and sold with a better beatmachine vsti?
 
I agree, Cakewalk could improve Dropzone or make something easy like Studio One's Impact.
 
Imo, if you want a real beat slice, mangle, play etc. tool, go and buy a good 3rd party program to do that. That's almost a better option as most DAW bundled plugins.
 
_Markus

What is lacking from Sonar's Step Sequencer for this?

As a long time Geist user I guess I'm spoiled and could never go back to beat making with Sonar's stock tools. It would be great if Cakewalk could cut a deal with fxpansion to include Geist with Sonar, if even a scaled down version. Addictive Drums is great but I've always felt Cakewalk needs to do more to appeal to the electronic/EDM crowd. One tour of the forums (in particular the songs forum) is enough to tell you that Sonar's user base seems heavily weighted to the older crowd who specialize in more traditional styles like rock, jazz and country. I'm not knocking this at all - as a guy in my early 40's I feel drawn to both modern electronic and traditional styles. But I think the home studio demographic is shifting to the way of electronic beats and synths, and Cakewalk must be aware that they'll have to do more for this crowd to push forward.

It's not that I don't think Sonar is suitable for creating electronic styles. That's the bulk of my hobby and I think Sonar is an excellent tool for any style. But my immediate impression was to wonder if I'd made the right choice instead of opting for something like Abelton. I know better now, but I very nearly did reject Sonar because of what I perceived was a lack of support for the styles of music I had in mind.

Anyway look out for Geist on sale. It's a serious piece of kit which is almost everything you could ever need for loop and beat creation.

Forkol, Adding 8 dropzones seems cumbersome, but Fl studio is doing just that, it' just more under the hood. I applaud the integration, but at the end of the day each fl default channel is still a seperate instance of step sequencer sampler combo. I'm not claiming  going the setup multiple dropzones is as easy but the functionality is there evenif convoluted. Do I work that way? **** no! Like sharke, I use Geist which gives me pretty much the drum sampler sequencer features of FL with some bonuses. I just mentioned options for those trying to stay within the limits of Sonar. Although I primarily use Geist for these type of things, I occasionally  dip into other ways because it helps stimulate creativity to try a new approach. One of the tendencies I notice with many of the people I encounter that use Fl is a tendency to sound alike. Take Trap beats for instance. If I hear one more track using the exact drum kit, synth presets, rolled snare pattern (using the exact same snare sample), etc, I will scream. Every now and then I will just use an instance of Z3ta or Rapture for my kick or even Session Drummer. The lack of effects in SD3 means i have to think about how i am shaping my drum samples and take control of every parameter.