williamcopper
 Do I really want an "amp-simulator" in every project (part of prochannel)? [....] .  Them . Be . Optional !!
 

SONAR's amp simulator is not integrated with ProChannel, so I'm not quite following what you mean here.  I do agree that more UI enhancements would be good (can't wait for the theme editor).  But most of what you want to be optional is already optional.  Are you using track templates?  You could create a template that starts out with just about nothing.

kb420
Sonar isn't the only software that I use. When it comes to midi, I think it's absolutely the worst, especially when it comes to drum programming. It's soo bad that I was surprised that no one had ever brought it up before this thread. I really believed, and I still believe, that the majority of Sonar users don't really compose midi in Sonar.

Audio editing is flawless in Sonar, but the midi implementation is ridiculously bad.

I take it you have never tried to use the midi shtuff in Acid. I think it has (was) the worst midi implementation ever. Practically stone knives and bear skins...

kb420
Sonar isn't the only software that I use. When it comes to midi, I think it's absolutely the worst

 
Which other DAWs do you use? I don't think it's possible to specify a timing/velocity randomize percentage when humanizing MIDI notes or create a hybrid drum kit (from two or more synths) in the drum map in Studio One. Also, it doesn't have inline PRV, staff view (you have to buy nortion software separately, I think), event list, etc. etc.
 
You need to mention the names the other DAWs you use and also cite at least top 3 weaknesses in SONAR's MIDI.
 
 

kb420
Audio editing is flawless in Sonar

 
I don't think so. At least Remove Silence doesn't work properly, and clip automation is horrible when applied to many clips in Take lanes (especially when there are tens of lanes - it takes several seconds or more just to collapse the lanes).
 
Also, audio recording has flaws. For example, arm one of existing lanes and loop-record in Overwrite recording mode. Only the last pass should remain when you stop recording, but previous passes also remain, hidden behind the last pass.

kb420
and I still believe, that the majority of Sonar users don't really compose midi in Sonar.

I start every project and do most of my editing in midi and use Sonar all day every day -  I am reasonably certain I am not alone:) 
 
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

icontakt

kb420
Sonar isn't the only software that I use. When it comes to midi, I think it's absolutely the worst

 
Which other DAWs do you use? I don't think it's possible to specify a timing/velocity randomize percentage when humanizing MIDI notes or create a hybrid drum kit (from two or more synths) in the drum map in Studio One. Also, it doesn't have inline PRV, staff view (you have to buy nortion software separately, I think), event list, etc. etc.
 
You need to mention the names the other DAWs you use and also cite at least top 3 weaknesses in SONAR's MIDI.
 
 

kb420
Audio editing is flawless in Sonar

 
I don't think so. At least Remove Silence doesn't work properly, and clip automation is horrible when applied to many clips in Take lanes (especially when there are tens of lanes - it takes several seconds or more just to collapse the lanes).
 
Also, audio recording has flaws. For example, arm one of existing lanes and loop-record in Overwrite recording mode. Only the last pass should remain when you stop recording, but previous passes also remain, hidden behind the last pass.

For midi composition,  I primarily use Ableton Live, Maschine Studio,  and I'm beginning to learn Studio One 3 Professional. I didn't use the word DAW in my post.  I used the word "software" because I don't consider Maschine a DAW,  but I find it much easier to compose midi data,  especially drums in Maschine over Sonar.    
 
Why do I have to mention 3 weaknesses?  Who said that?  Was that suppose to be a prerequisite for posting on this thread?  Did I miss something?  Oh well, These are just my personal grievances but here goes:
 
1.  The Piano Roll View.  It may just be a personal choice,  but I'll take Live, Studio One,  and Maschine's Piano Roll View over Sonar's any day of the week.  All 3 of them seem to be so much more responsive and easier to make edits on.  There's never any hidden muted notes.  No guessing about which parameter you may or may not be editing when you attempt to select a note.  Nudging notes,  and manipulating the grid on all three are incredibly easy when you compare it to Sonar.
 
2.  Non Linear Midi Composition.  Sonar does have a groove matrix,  so this may not be as much of an issue,  but I've never dug in to it much.  I doubt it's as flexible as Live's Session View.  If you don't know about Live's Session View,  I really don't think I could do it justice here in a short description.  If you are interested,  you would be better served by going to Ableton's website and watching some of their videos.  I will say this,  when it comes to non linear midi composition,  Ableton Live has,  in my opinion,  the best approach.  Maschine's software is also somewhat non linear in it's "Scene" approach.  For me,  being a MPC user for so long,  I can appreciate a workflow of creating patterns and then linking them together to build in to a song,  at least for drums.  Maschine is really hard to beat when it comes to drum programming.  There are other options such as Push from Ableton,  which I also own,  and then there's also the new MPC line.  All of which are definitely more suited for drum programming than Sonar and also all of them provide non linear midi composition.  If you take a look at Studio One,  which is primarily a linear sequencer,  you still have a super flexible way of recording midi when you consider the Arranger Track and the Scratch Pad.  With the Arranger Track,  you can actually treat whole sections of a song like patterns in a hardware sequencer and string them together any way you want to on a Scratch Pad.  The Arranger Track and the Scratch Pad are new to Studio One 3,  and they are what really gained my attention.

3.  Take Lanes.  I absolutely hate this for midi loop recording,  and nothing else I've ever used has anything like them.  You can't truly disable it. No matter what you do,  you always can tell that they are there in your arrangement window unless you comp them all.  It just seems like it's extra work for no reason.  I can understand the usefulness of Take Lanes when recording audio from a musician,  but I just wish you could completely disable it when working with midi,  especially midi loop recording.  
 
You said I should mention 3,  so there you have it.  I could actually go on and talk about workflow and the lack of dedicated midi controllers for midi composition,  but I'm not writing a thesis here.  You also mentioned "timing/velocity randomize percentage when humanizing MIDI notes or create a hybrid drum kit (from two or more synths) in the drum map".  You can't do that with Studio One.  Maschine can't do any timing/velocity randomize percentage when humanizing Midi notes,  but you can definitely create hybrid drum kits from two or more synths in the drum map.  Ableton Live can do both of those things with the Groove Pool and Drum Racks.

I'll admit I was completely wrong about audio editing in Sonar being flawless,  but I just find it sort of ironic that the two issues that you described are basically related to "Take Lanes".  It seems to me that you could eliminate those issues if "Take Lanes" could be toggled off or completely disabled,  and I'm definitely a fan of that.

Edit.  I never did touch on your comment about a Staff View,  but I don't have a need for a Staff View at all.
 

DrLumen

kb420
Sonar isn't the only software that I use. When it comes to midi, I think it's absolutely the worst, especially when it comes to drum programming. It's soo bad that I was surprised that no one had ever brought it up before this thread. I really believed, and I still believe, that the majority of Sonar users don't really compose midi in Sonar.

Audio editing is flawless in Sonar, but the midi implementation is ridiculously bad.

I take it you have never tried to use the midi shtuff in Acid. I think it has (was) the worst midi implementation ever. Practically stone knives and bear skins...

You're probably right.  I've never used Acid at all.

williamcopper 
Maybe other than getting everything to do with midi entry and editing fast, what I'd really love is a Sonar on a diet, get rid of all the crap that needs to be turned off in order to get work done, while keeping the mini-bar available for those who want to indulge optionally.   Do I really want an "amp-simulator" in every project (part of prochannel)?  No, it's absurd.     Do I want to dial in how much grunge to add to every project?  No.  Make it optional, exceptional.   Do I want a "tube", whatever that is, on every track?  Hell no.   Do I want a line in the PRV for every controller on every midi channel on every track?   NO NO NO.    I can appreciate that some people do want some of these things, but Let .  Them . Be . Optional !!

They already are. None of the things you mention is loaded by default. If you don't want ""an amp-simulator" in every project", then all you need to do is carefully avoid clicking on the box that loads an amp-simulator.

 

williamcopper
edit -- And then MENUS ... they are outrageously EVERYWHERE.    Slim down, menus in ONE place only.   This goes back to User Interface ...
 

Well, if you want a powerful application with lots of functions then it's going to have menus. Pretty much all software on all platforms does. And if you think Sonar's interface is bad in any way you've not tried using Logic's ugly, insanely powerful but very poorly documented "MIDI environment."

If, however, you want to use software that just does a few things without putting the user through the difficult process of not loading plugins they don't want to load, maybe Sonar simply isn't the thing for you. Or Live, Cubase, Logic or any other of the major DAWs.

Have you tried Garageband? That hasn't got too many menus.

tenfoot

kb420
and I still believe, that the majority of Sonar users don't really compose midi in Sonar.

I start every project and do most of my editing in midi and use Sonar all day every day -  I am reasonably certain I am not alone:) 
 
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

Same here. I'm a video game music composer and 99% of my work is done using only MIDI (sample libraries, etc.). I use Sonar Platinum from beginning to end. :)

I actually hate composing midi in Maschine, it's true it's great for creating loops and stuff but chaining patterns together, editing fills and breaks and trying to keep everything lined up with the host DAW is a nightmare.
Ableton is nice, switching seemlessly between session view and arrange view is brilliant. 
 
One thing I miss in Sonar that Logic does is nondestructive quantization. In Logic, you can select a recorded (i.e. "human timing") clip and apply for instance 16th swing quantization at 70 percent strength. You can set quantization strength for each clip and you can change it after the fact. In Sonar if I quantize at 70 percent strength and later realize the part needed to remain a bit more human, it's not so easy to fiddle with that number anymore. 

Sanderxpander
One thing I miss in Sonar that Logic does is nondestructive quantization. In Logic, you can select a recorded (i.e. "human timing") clip and apply for instance 16th swing quantization at 70 percent strength. You can set quantization strength for each clip and you can change it after the fact. In Sonar if I quantize at 70 percent strength and later realize the part needed to remain a bit more human, it's not so easy to fiddle with that number anymore. 

+1 for that Sanderxpander.
 
There is a way to do it in Sonar though. Rather than using the quantize function from the process menu, you can insert the Cakewalk quantize midi plugin into the tracks fx bin. That way you can go back and make any changes you like at any time.