• SONAR
  • My thoughts about planned updates for 2016
2016/01/16 12:06:16
vladasyn
 
I have read the plans for updates. I hope that this is just for Spring, as it looks like too many important aspects of music production are not a priority for the team.
First of all- when is the bug with text typing in plugins will be fixed? There is too much focus on Shortcuts. I hate shortcuts. I never use them. I use the mouse. The qwerty keyboard is not a part of my workflow because I refuse to memorize the key combinations. It is easy to remember if you using Sonar on a daily basis. If it is once in few days or once a week- it is nearly impossible to remember all the common combinations. And why, if everything is accessible on the user interface? Yet- I don’t see anywhere it says, “We will make UI more logical to use with the mouse”.
 Sonar is so focused on shortcuts- it would not allow to simply type a preset name in software synth. Let’s say- I created new sound and want to save it with the name Violin. I can’t because when I type, the Sonar does not recognize that I am in plugin Save mode and thinks I am typing a shortcut. Why is it not being fixed?
 
I see no enhancements planned for MIDI. No scoring and Staff view improvement. Sonar used to be able to perform basic note entry, it was easy to write arpeggiation or chords or melody line by entering the notes in a staff view. Then all the functionality disappeared and there is no plans to get back what we used to have?
 
No improvements to arpeggiator. I would like new patterns, new logical arpeggiator presets and ability to import MIDI patterns or notes in to arpeggiator. Like Nora: Play arpeggio once and it will repeat it from every key, preferably with key recognition function.
 
Do we have PADS view yet? Something like in Abelton Live and IK Multimedia Sample Tank 3.
The effects. Mastering effects are nice, but I personally would not master in Sonar. May be one day, when it matures. For now, I use Izotope Ozone. But I do mix in Sonar and I need effects such as Compressor, Reverb, Gain, Delay available to work with the individual tracks. The effects that come with Sonar Platinum been there from like Sonar 4 version. It has been over 10 years. May be Gibson can buy some independent effects company or hire somebody who can create newer powerful effects that will hold competition against the 3rd party effect manufacturers.
There is a way to add new measures at the position specified, but no way to delete measures. If I want everything between measure 53 and 74 gone and window closed (everything moved together,), I would not be able to do it. There is no way to delete empty measures at the end of the track. The song keeps going and going and going. There should be a way to set END point. In the transport, there is option to go to beginning or end, that is great. But if the end somehow at measure 600, this is not helpful. I like to be able to set the END where the song actually ends.
 
I am not a “power user”. I am sure people who spend more time with it have their list even longer. There probably much more to ask for that I can’t think of right now. Would be nice if this “essential” functionality was available. Thank you.
2016/01/16 12:16:17
williamcopper
MIDI MIDI MIDI!  Yes.    Though on the subject of shortcuts, I'm on the opposite side.   I'd rather not ever touch the mouse, if that were possible.    I especially hate situations that require shifting from mouse to keyboard to mouse, like changing the damn loop begin and end fields to a specific bar-beat-tick.
2016/01/16 12:49:31
Anderton
vladasyn
First of all- when is the bug with text typing in plugins will be fixed? Let’s say- I created new sound and want to save it with the name Violin. I can’t because when I type, the Sonar does not recognize that I am in plugin Save mode and thinks I am typing a shortcut. Why is it not being fixed?

 
I'm pretty sure it depends on the plug-in design. If it does not have the focus, then your keystrokes will, logically enough, go to what does (which would be SONAR, or whatever other application is open if it has the focus, e.g., if a word processor has the focus because you're working on lyrics). This is why there is a button which you can click with a mouse that gives all keystrokes to the plug-in. If you save presets by double-clicking on the Preset name in the plug-in header, that automatically gives the plug-in the focus. IIRC all the plug-ins included with SONAR behave this way.
 
There is too much focus on Shortcuts. I hate shortcuts. I never use them. I use the mouse. The qwerty keyboard is not a part of my workflow because I refuse to memorize the key combinations.

 
In the days of analog, every function mapped to its own control. With computers, if you use a mouse, all functions map to a single control - the mouse. Pro Tools was the first program to recognize the severity of this limitation, and it became shortcut-dependent to the point where keyboards are made for PT that emphasize the shortcuts. If you use PT, you are expected to use shortcuts. I think there are also custom keyboards for SONAR, but if you don't want to spend the money, you can also buy stickers to go on the existing keys for $7. Check out 4keyboard.com
 
Fortunately, touch comes very close to the one function/one control ethos. I've been working with a 28" touch screen and while there are still things you can't do, like grab a clip by its handle and move it around, it's getting much closer to being like working with hardware again. Combining touch screen and mouse means you can ignore almost all keyboard shortcuts.
 
 
Yet- I don’t see anywhere it says, “We will make UI more logical to use with the mouse”.

 
A mouse was never designed to do digital audio editing. Expect to see touch replace a mouse for most applications in the future. Optimizing interfaces for a mouse will become less and less important in the future for all programs.
 
I see no enhancements planned for MIDI. No scoring and Staff view improvement.

 
There weren't any announced for 2015, in fact Bill Jackson said none were planned but they review the topic periodically and the odds were better for improvements due to the new model. Because many people expressed the desire for SV fixes and improvements, several have trickled in over the past few months. I wouldn't be surprised if more are planned.
 
No improvements to arpeggiator. I would like new patterns, new logical arpeggiator presets and ability to import MIDI patterns or notes in to arpeggiator. Like Nora: Play arpeggio once and it will repeat it from every key, preferably with key recognition function.

 
Make a feature request and see if it gets traction. Personally, I'd like to see more MIDI effects that can increase the functionality of arpeggiation, including ones built into soft synths. I suspect I'm in a minority, though. 
 
But I do mix in Sonar and I need effects such as Compressor, Reverb, Gain, Delay available to work with the individual tracks. The effects that come with Sonar Platinum been there from like Sonar 4 version. It has been over 10 years. May be Gibson can buy some independent effects company or hire somebody who can create newer powerful effects that will hold competition against the 3rd party effect manufacturers.

 
The problem with that thinking is if suitable plug-ins already exist from thousands of manufacturers, it makes little sense for Cakewalk to "re-invent the wheel." It makes much more sense to concentrate on improving the core program, which is unique to Cakewalk. Besides, plug-ins are so subjective - there was a recent thread asking for the "best" compressor and it seems every post had a different preference (although to be fair, there were a lot of CA-2A fans). So if Cakewalk put a lot of effort into developing new plug-ins, there's no guarantee that everyone would want them but they'd still have to pay for them. The number of people posting comments like "I don't need more plug-ins, I want more optimizations and enhancements to the core program" are definitely in the majority.
 
It's incorrect to say that all effects that come with Platinum have been there from SONAR 4: there's the suite of twenty Blue Tubes effects (which includes some really tasty "vintage" ones), the outstanding QuadCurve EQ, TH2 Producer, Breverb, Analog Trackbox, BiFilter 2, Console Emulator, Bark of Dog, Panipulator, Tape Emulator, PC4K bus compressor, PC-76 U-Type compressor, Rematrix Solo, Softube saturation, and the 8 style dials are all relatively recent additions. And, several optional plug-ins are available, like the CA-2A, PC4K expander/gate, and Concrete Limiter. As to the "mastering" effects, linear phase EQ has many applications other than mastering.
 
There is a way to add new measures at the position specified, but no way to delete measures. If I want everything between measure 53 and 74 gone and window closed (everything moved together,), I would not be able to do it.

 
Drag in the timeline over the area you want to delete, choose Cut Special, making sure you check "Delete Hole."



2016/01/16 13:14:53
vladasyn
I'm pretty sure it depends on the plug-in design. If it does not have the focus, then your keystrokes will, logically enough, go to what does (which would be SONAR, or whatever other application is open if it has the focus, e.g., if a word processor has the focus because you're working on lyrics). This is why there is a button which you can click with a mouse that gives all keystrokes to the plug-in. If you save presets by double-clicking on the Preset name in the plug-in header, that automatically gives the plug-in the focus. IIRC all the plug-ins included with SONAR behave this way.

 
If I am working in the synth, have it open, on the top of the Sonar, and I just clicked on the plugin controls to create this new sound, how would it be not in focus? I click on “Save Preset”, it opens standard Windows Explorer looking window, but I cannot type in it, because Sonar freaking out changing views, thinking I typed a shortcut. There is no way to make it go in to plugin.
 
A mouse was never designed to do digital audio editing. Expect to see touch replace a mouse for most applications in the future. Optimizing interfaces for a mouse will become less and less important in the future for all programs.

Thanks God I am not in ProTools. That shortcut madness is a buzz killer. You may use more touch controls if you on the tablet. I have 27” monitors (2), they are not touch enabled. But I would not want to touch monitor. It would leave a fingerprints, then when you try to see the small numbers or text, it is hard to see through the grease on the screen. Ugh. I have to wash my iPad daily. I would have extra expance on the screan cleaning solution. Besides- monitor is located at the end of the desk- I cannot reach to eat without leaning forward. My hands would be tired to hold them up all the time to touch the monitor. I put a mouse pad on my knee. So far I do not have any issues with not being able to access any controls with mouse, but I don’t like where it goes with more and more shortcuts implemented. They wrote that they will have Help function built in that would offer the shortcuts list. How about not using so many shortcuts that we would need Help file for it? If it is not on the UI and I cannot see it abd click on it, it does not exist to me. I don’t want to worry that there is some other world of functions under the regular interface that I have no access to and not knowing it even exists because I can’t see it.
The problem with that thinking is if suitable plug-ins already exist from thousands of manufacturers, it makes little sense for Cakewalk to "re-invent the wheel." It makes much more sense to concentrate on improving the core program, which is unique to Cakewalk. Besides, plug-ins are so subjective - there was a recent thread asking for the "best" compressor and it seems every post had a different preference (although to be fair, there were a lot of CA-2A fans). So if Cakewalk put a lot of effort into developing new plug-ins, there's no guarantee that everyone would want them but they'd still have to pay for them. The number of people posting comments like "I don't need more plug-ins, I want more optimizations and enhancements to the core program" are definitely in the majority.

 This is like to say that there other DAWs on the market, so why improve functionality if users can just use other DAWs. They worry about ridiculous small things that very few people care about, yet- overlook huge needed things like plugins. I still use DirectX Compressor almost on each track when I need to get rid of spikes. But those are old plugins. Just like they have basic EQ and compressor on each channel, there should be essential tools to be able to complete mixing without using 3rd party plugins. This is about what your DAW can do. If it does nothing but recording guitar tracks and drums, may be we should use 3rd party DAW as well.  
2016/01/16 13:38:42
deswind
I would suggest using survey monkey on user base.  How many want mouse function - icons - over shortcuts?
How many want color improvements - keeping clips in same color without having to change each clip to the color scheme of the track?  And other items could be in the survey of course.

Also I think it would a good idea to have examples of the systems used to test Sonar versions.  Then people who are buying new computer systems, could buy the one they are testing on.
2016/01/16 13:58:30
slartabartfast
I am not too keen on seeing new plugins or audio processing stuff added to Sonar, and would not be likely to jump on the new bandwagon if these were being offered. But Sonar is, after all, not an audio editor at its heart. It is a sequencer with audio capabilities. If all you do is cut and paste audio and apply effects, you could flush a large chunk of Sonar without any loss. If that is not the plan, then why are we not seeing the kind of built in MIDI routing that is being introduced into the audio sections? It would certainly be as useful to anyone using Sonar for anything but a bloated audio editor to be able to route MIDI from patch points to different instruments on a single MIDI track, or even set multiple instruments as the output of a track. Is that possible in the new version, or do you still have to use external programs to make simple one-to-many connections?  It would look to be a lot simpler job of programming to do this kind of thing with MIDI than audio. As for notation fixes...
2016/01/16 14:27:09
Beepster
Oh my goodness... Vlad... again (after just a brief scan of your post) most of the stuff you are talking about is already part of the package and totally possible.
 
I'm not going to go through the list (as Craig has) but yeah... right off the bat... the "Give All Keystrokes" button is something you need to learn and use if it is causing that much distress (which it would if you are not aware of it).
 
As for plugs... we can do almost ANYTHING commonly needed for mixing and in many cases multiple times over (as in we have like three of many types of plugs and instruments).
 
For "pad" based stuff we have Cyclone (a virtual instrument/synth) and the Matrix View. They aren't like Ableton but they are indeed "pad style" triggering options. Many of the synths can load samples too.
 
Yes... there could be better arrangement and triggering functions like Ableton but Ableton already exists and there are quite a few third party plugs out there that can be added (actually I think one could even use Rewire to use Ableton in SOnar but I don't much about that type of crap).
 
As for hotkeys... well without them we;d be looking at whole pages of buttons. It is a very complex program. Use the "Custom" module and you can assign a ton of tasks to clickable buttons.
2016/01/16 14:38:59
Sylvan
For those of us who work with paying clients, stumbling around with a mouse would bounce me right out of business. Keyboard shortcuts are an absolute MUST HAVE. Speed and efficiency are the hallmarks of a professional. Just adding this in lest any bakers get the absolute crazy idea to do away with keyboard shortcuts. That would be the most awful thing imaginable and I would be forced elsewhere to maintain validity in a competitive industry.
2016/01/16 14:52:26
John
I can't think of a DAW that doesn't have keyboard shortcuts. For me I use a mouse, the computer keyboard and a control surface. Even with all that it sometimes seems not quite enough. At present CW has done a great job in trying to make using Sonar as painless as possible.  The notion that shortcuts are a bad thing is a new concept that I do not think will gain much traction.
 
What this thread is really saying is the OP is not willing to learn the keyboard shortcuts he needs to work with Sonar and do the kind work he wants to do. I don't think anyone knows all of them for every job and function but it is a really good idea to learn those that one is most likely to need.  
2016/01/16 14:55:32
Beepster
Sylvan
For those of us who work with paying clients, stumbling around with a mouse would bounce me right out of business. Keyboard shortcuts are an absolute MUST HAVE. Speed and efficiency are the hallmarks of a professional. Just adding this in lest any bakers get the absolute crazy idea to do away with keyboard shortcuts. That would be the most awful thing imaginable and I would be forced elsewhere to maintain validity in a competitive industry.




If anything I would like them to expand on the Keybinding/MIDI control options.
 
I want them to completely and shamelessly rip off how Reaper does it. Every darned possible function totally serachable, bindable, MIDI mappable in one shot.
 
For those obsessed with buttons like the OP they could make the Custom module expandable to accept as many commands as one desires (beyond the current limit). They could make it floating too like the HUD for extra convenience. But I guess they'd have to bind it to make it pop up like the HUD though. lol
 
BTW... you did get those files way back when... yes?
 
Cheers.
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