• SONAR
  • VSTi multiple inputs and outputs, and how Solo/Mute work
2015/06/06 08:57:03
williamcopper
Not sure if this is a "problem" or a "feature" that doesn't work.  
 
Here's the background:  I use many Kontakt 5 instances as VST instruments.   Each is loaded with up to 16 channels of Kontakt Instruments and Instrument Banks.   Each channel has an associated midi track.   The channel number in the midi track directs the events to the correct Kontakt channel.   
 
Now because of how Kontakt works, it frequently makes sense to group some channels together to make a unified 'sound':  if I want a violin section with changing articulations, that often means 4 midi tracks going to 4 kontakt channels -- but the result is all one unit, the "violins".   So those four channels get routed to only one Kontakt output, and then one Sonar "instrument track".  The next four kontakt channels, likewise, are the second violins, and they go to a second Sonar instrument track.     So -- 8  midi tracks, one Kontakt instance, 8 loaded kontakt channels, and TWO outputs and Sonar instrument tracks ... that way I can pan the second violins different from the first violins, for instance.   
 
Now here's the problem:  it would seem natural to solo the second violin Sonar instrument track, and get all the midi tracks that go to channels that output to the second violin instrument track.   But!!  it doesn't work that way.   If I click "solo" or "mute" or "unsolo" or "unmute", on that second VSTi output, then ALL the midi channels going to that Kontakt instance are solod or muted.      Also, if I solo or mute ONE single midi track from the 8, I get BOTH kontakt output channels/Sonar Instrument Tracks solod or muted ... including the one I don't want to hear.  
 
And last, an even bigger problem:   if I solo one of the outputs (Sonar Instrument tracks), ALL the midi tracks are solod, but none of the other outputs are solod ... so Sonar is telling me I'll hear both first and second violins, but it isn't true: I need to select the other output and solo it.    All told, the way it works means a large number of clicks with unintended consequences to get a certain group of midi tracks and their correct outputs solod or muted together.  
 
2015/06/06 09:38:08
Kylotan
I guess Sonar has no way of knowing which MIDI inputs correspond to which Audio outputs for a given instrument, as that would depend on what the plugin chooses to do with the MIDI data. Therefore I suspect that there is no way for multi-in and multi-out synths to work with Solo/Mute that will work in every situation, short of having you manually solo/mute each of the channels you need, each time. Hopefully Sonar still allows that and doesn't override it with the automatic changes?
2015/06/06 14:21:53
SquireBum
williamcopper
Not sure if this is a "problem" or a "feature" that doesn't work. 



It is really neither.  To paraphrase Kylotan, the VSTi handles the routing of the MIDI channel to the audio channel and the VSTi does not expose its internal routing to Sonar.  It is possible to verify this by checking a MIDI track's Output list.  Are there Multiple outs for each Kontakt instance in the MIDI track's output list?
 
Since the routing occurs inside the VSTi, theoretically the VSTi should provide the Mute and Solo controls for its groups.
 
Just a suggestion:
If using the VSTi for Mute and Solo is not an option, then possibly consider setting up track control groups.  For example, create a group that contains all of the "Mute" track controls for the 1st Violin MIDI tracks and the 1st Violin Instrument track.  Then follow this by creating a group for all of the 1st Violin "Solo" track controls.  The group name and color are customizable in the Group Manager dialog.
 
From the SONAR Reference Guide:
Tip: You can quickly group identical controls in multiple tracks. To do so, select the desired tracks, then assign a
control to a group. SONAR automatically assigns the same control in all other selected tracks to the same group.
 
-- Ron
2015/06/07 08:34:32
DRanck
I don't route Kontakt instruments the way you do so I never have run into this myself (I use a separate channel for each instrument). But I did a little experiment:
 
I had a Kontakt instance with 5 KH strings instances routed to 5 different outputs. Muting one did not effect the others. Then I rerouted two of the KH strings to use the same Kontakt output (which if I understand your post, is what you are doing). I can still separately mute each Kontakt output in the console view. Muting one KH strip in the console does not effect the others.
 
That is not what I expected to happen based on your post. The only possible difference I see is that I had originally generated one output for each instrument in Kontakt's output panel.
 
If you can't get it to work, would it be an option to create a separate output in Kontakt for each instrument and then route "groups " like first violin to a single bus? Then hide the strips for the rerouted outputs and just use the bus. Just a thought.
 
2016/01/22 19:19:47
WilliamHenley
williamcopper
Not sure if this is a "problem" or a "feature" that doesn't work.  
 
Here's the background:  I use many Kontakt 5 instances as VST instruments.   Each is loaded with up to 16 channels of Kontakt Instruments and Instrument Banks.   Each channel has an associated midi track.   The channel number in the midi track directs the events to the correct Kontakt channel.   
 
Now because of how Kontakt works, it frequently makes sense to group some channels together to make a unified 'sound':  if I want a violin section with changing articulations, that often means 4 midi tracks going to 4 kontakt channels -- but the result is all one unit, the "violins".   So those four channels get routed to only one Kontakt output, and then one Sonar "instrument track".  The next four kontakt channels, likewise, are the second violins, and they go to a second Sonar instrument track.     So -- 8  midi tracks, one Kontakt instance, 8 loaded kontakt channels, and TWO outputs and Sonar instrument tracks ... that way I can pan the second violins different from the first violins, for instance.   
 
Now here's the problem:  it would seem natural to solo the second violin Sonar instrument track, and get all the midi tracks that go to channels that output to the second violin instrument track.   But!!  it doesn't work that way.   If I click "solo" or "mute" or "unsolo" or "unmute", on that second VSTi output, then ALL the midi channels going to that Kontakt instance are solod or muted.      Also, if I solo or mute ONE single midi track from the 8, I get BOTH kontakt output channels/Sonar Instrument Tracks solod or muted ... including the one I don't want to hear.  
 
And last, an even bigger problem:   if I solo one of the outputs (Sonar Instrument tracks), ALL the midi tracks are solod, but none of the other outputs are solod ... so Sonar is telling me I'll hear both first and second violins, but it isn't true: I need to select the other output and solo it.    All told, the way it works means a large number of clicks with unintended consequences to get a certain group of midi tracks and their correct outputs solod or muted together.  
 


Our issues are different but we are both wanting "the same end result" I believe. I use Sonar Platinum for live play. My desire, which seems to be at the end of the rainbow, is to be able to construct a simple MIDI message which mutes or un-mutes a track (channel, strip, etc,etc). I've been unable to find any documentation allowing such. Should you resolve your issue, I think it may resolve mine as well. Should you come across any documentation regarding channel control by MIDI, please post.   
2016/01/23 00:33:05
mudgel
Is it perhaps because you're using Instrument tracks?
2016/01/23 02:44:57
brundlefly
WilliamHenley
My desire, which seems to be at the end of the rainbow, is to be able to construct a simple MIDI message which mutes or un-mutes a track (channel, strip, etc,etc). I've been unable to find any documentation allowing such.



I don't want to hijack William's thread, but...
 
Since MIDI was originally developed to control hardware synths, and 'muting' channels/outputs is not something any hardware synth was ever designed to do (as far as I know), there's no standardized message for muting a synth output, much less muting a track in a DAW.
 
You can, however, set up MIDI remote control of buttons in SONAR, but the MIDI message has to come in from an external MIDI Input. So if you wanted the message to come from a track within SONAR, you'd have to route it out and back in via hardware loopback of virtual MIDI cable.
 
Depending on what you're trying to accomplish, I think it would probably be easiest to just set CC7 Volume to zero to silence the synth, either using MIDI automation or discrete Controller messages, or just automate the track mute (MIDI or Audio) directly.
 
What exactly are you wanting to accomplish?
2016/01/23 03:01:35
robert_e_bone
 I run with multiple loaded instruments into multi-rack instances of Kontakt, and I just now ran a test in Platinum, where I have 2 instances of Kontakt, each with 4 loaded instruments going to their own separate output channels, then routed to separate audio/midi track combinations for each instrument.
 
When I mute or unmute any one of those instruments (either the audio or the midi tracks), no other audio or midi tracks are affected one way or the other.
 
So, I too am wondering exactly how you have one of these instances loaded up, so that I can better match your steps.  I will go back and read your posts again in detail, to make sure I get as close as possible to what you posted you were doing, and then I will post back with my results.
 
I DID have a thought on this whole thing though - IF indeed that behavior is acting on a whole group of instrument tracks for mute/unmute, why not limit the loaded instruments of any given Kontakt instance to where it only has the instruments you are routing to a single output channel.  This way, even if all the 2nd violins get muted or unmuted at the same time, it wouldn't affect any other instrument's sound.
 
Would that be a reasonable work-around?  It would mean slightly more overhead from having a few additional Kontakt instances, but that would be about it, since the total number of actual loaded instruments would remain the same.  One performance gain would occur too, from splitting the dealing with the additional instances among more CPU processing threads/cores.
 
Anyways, I will post back again in a little bit, after I better follow your steps and experiment a bit :)
 
Bob Bone
 
2016/01/23 06:30:07
Kylotan
I think some of this behaviour has changed slightly since this thread was first started, so bear that in mind.
2016/02/02 18:49:14
thedukewestern
Im still learning my way around the whole midi thing - and came upon this thread because i KNOW FOR CERTAIN Im not using kontakt to its fullest potetnial - and am inserting a new instance all the time etc.  How do you actually set up your session to run multiple kontact synths from multiple midi tracks?
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