sharke
Getting back to the OP, I have to say I was a little disappointed with Cake's room at IMSTA at the SAE Institute in New York a couple of years ago. I believe that was pre-Gibson? Anyway the Cake staff who were there were friendly and informative enough, but all they really had was a computer with I believe X3 loaded up and a bunch of people chatting among themselves. I was in there for an hour or so and didn't see any kind of demo of the software, it was really just a "well there it is, take a look if you want" kind of affair. 
 
I contrasted this with the Studio One room, which featured a large projector and a guy giving a fast paced talk about all the new features, which he demonstrated very well, despite my embarrassing tendency to lean back against the wall and inadvertently switch the lights on  There was then an in depth Q&A session. Of course it didn't persuade me to make the switch, but they did manage to create a genuine buzz in the room. About the only thing I can remember from the Cakewalk room was sitting on the sofa next to a guy who complained non-stop about having lost his workflow with the X-series. There was no projector, no demo and no Q&A. I definitely came away feeling like they'd sold themselves short somewhat, especially since X3 did look quite dapper on the screen. 

Who was the guy who used to be the sort of public "face" of Sonar that went to work for Roland? I think someone like him was instrumental in getting more interest drawn for Sonar. Use social media to its max. Studio One is making waves (pun intended) with their presentations. I believe Sonar has some clout which it can rely on to be a popular choice. It does have a great track record, but that shouldn't stop them from pushing the publicity. Even PT gets a large dose of publicity and publishing of their new features--even to the point their resellers are jumping into the action to help. 
 
Sonar has one thing that I believe still allows it to stand above others, which is intuitiveness. It's not perfect, but if you had some guy with a big screen and a mic showing how intuitive its features are, hearts would be won. I strongly believe that. At Summer 'NAMM, I just felt nobody in the booth was really proud of Sonar. I'm serious, it WAS SAD!! I almost walked away broken-hearted.

I am kind of perplexed by some peoples reaction to this. If you were interested in software of any kind, would you be more likely to download a demo, watch some youtube videos and experiment with its features, or go to a shop and ask someone to show it to you? There is a better way now. Software at trade shows (if not also boxed retail) is dead. Long live software!

tenfoot
I am kind of perplexed by some peoples reaction to this. If you were interested in software of any kind, would you be more likely to download a demo, watch some youtube videos and experiment with its features, or go to a shop and ask someone to show it to you? There is a better way now. Software at trade shows (if not also boxed retail) is dead. Long live software!

yeah, but if your fave software co have a stand at the expo, but nobody's there, what message does that send?

irvin

Anderton
 
Another reality is that the number of audio interfaces outsells the number of DAWs sold or updated by a huge margin every month. So either people are using 7 or 8 interfaces with their copy of SONAR or Cubase or whatever, or...there are a lot of people stealing software via torrents.

 
Yes, rampant piracy is an undeniable reality. I have - for a very long time - espoused the view that the "digital recording revolution" is made possible by piracy, more than technological advances. 99% of current "Independent Producers",  "Youtube Artists" and "Soundcloud Sensations" would not be making music if they had to pay for every single product they use.
 

Anderton
The attitude of some people on this forum makes it obvious why software companies are having such a hard time: people don't want to pay what's required for these companies to grow and prosper. They have this unrealistic sense of entitlement that they should be able to pay $50 - $150 a year in a tiny, tiny business and get flawless code, insanely great support, discounts, their pet feature requests implemented, deals, and a big trade show presence. 

 
Honest users have EVERY RIGHT to expect a competitively-priced product. Frankly, I  could not care a bit less if 10 million people or just a single lonely teenager steals your software. Why should I subsidize theft?
 
Reality is that if Cakewalk does not offer an attractive, competitive price, everyone will move to Studio One, Reaper, Samplitude, Logic, ProTools,  Ableton, Digital Performer, GarageBand, Cubase, Nuendo, MixBus, Reason, MixCraft, FruityLoops, BitWig and a thousand other products that get the job done as well as Sonar.
 
And yes, I personally DO have this  "unrealistic sense of entitlement that they should be able to pay $50 - $150 a year" - in fact, I will not pay more than $100 for my next Cakewalk subscription, if I decide to renew it.
 
 

Anderton
FWIW many companies basically subsidize their software through sales of interface hardware (or in the case of Apple, $800,000,000,000 in the bank and a zillion iPhones; or in the case of Reaper, selling Winamp to AOL back in the day for $500,000,000) - remember, hardware can't be downloaded from a torrent. So, software-only companies have to do whatever they can to try and meet the unrealistic expectations of consumers who are unaware of the realities of being in business.

 
It seems to me YOU are the one not aware of the realities of being in business. People do not care how much Apple or Cakewalk make or lose on their products. Why should they? Should users ignore Logic's price and go for a more expensive product that does not offer better features...because?????
 
Should we hate or love Justin Frankle for spending his own money giving users a product worth much more than what they paid for it?

I'm not telling anyone what they should or should not do or think. I am merely explaining how this business works and the constraints under which companies operate. If you find that offensive, that's your choice. The FACT is that a company can only provide services based on the income it receives. It is unrealistic to expect to pay a rock-bottom price and get top-notch service in all possible areas. If for example customers were willing to forego tech support, SONAR could cost less. If people didn't steal software, SONAR could cost less. There is nothing offensive about that reality. 
 
Nor do people necessarily think things through. Logic at $199 looks very attractive until you consider the cost of the computer required to run it, and the inability to run older Apple programs on newer operating systems that require a newer computer...thus requiring the purchase of a new computer periodically. Apples makes no secret of the fact that they make their money selling hardware, and the software is designed to feed into that paradigm. It's up to you to decide if you want to support that paradigm. Hey, I have a Mac too...
 
And some people vote with their dollars. Some find the concept of Reaper being the "grim reaper that destroys all in its path" offensive. I don't; as I've said, all's fair in love, war, and capitalism. But it doesn't mean I have to choose something just because it's the lowest price. I don't buy fenced goods, either. And my whole point was that it's unrealistic for a company that doesn't have those kind of resources to be able to follow the same pricing structure as one that does. That's not offensive, that's reality.
 

I went to a free clinic that Brandon Ryan did at a Guitar Center in the SFV  a number of years ago ..
We (meaning the attendees ) had the whole Pro Audio room to our self's for the clinic .
It  was awesome man . It lasted about 2 hours . Brandon demoed SONAR , Dimension Pro and Rapture ....
I went out and bought Dim Pro real quick after that ..Plus the new version of SONAR when it came out...
 
On the other hand back in the day when I had endorsements / good will sponsorship  by both the presidents of Guild and Kramer Guitars .
(Meaning both Guitar company's presidents personally  gifted me with one their top of the line guitars.....my choice ... ) 
I wound up playing a trade show at the M..S..Garden Felt Forum sp?  for Guild Guitars ..
It was a blast to do , but playing that Trade Show was just like playing at the Bronx Zoo where all the Elephants were throwing peanuts at me
I used my own Guild  one of a kind pro type and the second I got done playing I damn near had to handcuff it to my wrist
 
...People get pretty grab happy in these large trade shows...
 
I would rather pay 20 or 30 bucks to sit in a nice warm comfy room for a couple of hours and listen to a person like Craig or whomever happens to be teaching go though a prearranged clinic than too have to duck 15 dollar hot dogs , grab happy guitar noodlers and fret board action checkers .
 
enough said, 
Kenny
 
 

sharke
Getting back to the OP, I have to say I was a little disappointed with Cake's room at IMSTA at the SAE Institute in New York a couple of years ago. I believe that was pre-Gibson? Anyway the Cake staff who were there were friendly and informative enough, but all they really had was a computer with I believe X3 loaded up and a bunch of people chatting among themselves. I was in there for an hour or so and didn't see any kind of demo of the software, it was really just a "well there it is, take a look if you want" kind of affair. 
 
I contrasted this with the Studio One room, which featured a large projector and a guy giving a fast paced talk about all the new features, which he demonstrated very well, despite my embarrassing tendency to lean back against the wall and inadvertently switch the lights on  There was then an in depth Q&A session. Of course it didn't persuade me to make the switch, but they did manage to create a genuine buzz in the room. About the only thing I can remember from the Cakewalk room was sitting on the sofa next to a guy who complained non-stop about having lost his workflow with the X-series. There was no projector, no demo and no Q&A. I definitely came away feeling like they'd sold themselves short somewhat, especially since X3 did look quite dapper on the screen. 

I was at this show and actually and think I remember meeting you although you didn't introduce yourself as Sharke :)
 
So as I remember, we had a room with a a big Neve mixing console on the right when you walk in. The whole setup wasn't conducive to a demo. There were bigger classrooms and I believe NI had one of them and maybe Presonus or Image-Line, and it definitely catered itself more to the demo. When we did shows at SAE in Times Square, we had more room and actually did demos and even some live performances. I understand your point but sometimes you play the hand you are dealt. In IMSTA LA, we actually did live performance with a guitar player who was playing Rapture through a MIDI guitar.
 
But all this feedback is great and we can work on better solutions. Thanks. 

Anderton
I'm not telling anyone what they should or should not do or think. I am merely explaining how this business works and the constraints under which companies operate. If you find that offensive, that's your choice.

 
Telling YOUR LOYAL CUSTOMERS (we are here, but we could be at a misspelled Audio site enjoying Sonar for free!) that they have a "sense of entitlement" because they have an idea of how much they are willing to pay is insulting.
 
I find it insulting, personally.
 

Anderton
The FACT is that a company can only provide services based on the income it receives. It is unrealistic to expect to pay a rock-bottom price and get top-notch service in all possible areas. If for example customers were willing to forego tech support, SONAR could cost less. If people didn't steal software, SONAR could cost less. There is nothing offensive about that reality. 
 

 
the FACT is that sonar is worth what people are willing to pay for it - it does not matter whether Cakewalk makes a profit or not, whether Sonar is good or not. Harrison MixBus is $30 and almost nobody wants it. ProTools is far more than Sonar and a lot of people are more than happy to pay the asking price.
 
If people steal the software, it does not matter to your PAYING customers. We are not going to sit here and say: "Oh, yes, there is a lot of piracy going on. Let's pay more than the software is worth to compensate Cakewalk for the actions of bad guys"
 
Get in touch with reality.
 
 

Anderton 
Nor do people necessarily think things through. Logic at $199 looks very attractive until you consider the cost of the computer required to run it, and the inability to run older Apple programs on newer operating systems that require a newer computer...thus requiring the purchase of a new computer periodically. Apples makes no secret of the fact that they make their money selling hardware, and the software is designed to feed into that paradigm. It's up to you to decide if you want to support that paradigm. Hey, I have a Mac too...

 
See? speaking out of both sides of the mouth:
 
1. "Nor do people necessarily think things through".
2. "It's up to you to decide if you want to support that paradigm."
 
In other words, when people choose it is "up to them to decide". When they choose something you don't profit from, "they don't think things through".
 
Not very honest.
 

Anderton
And some people vote with their dollars. Some find the concept of Reaper being the "grim reaper that destroys all in its path" offensive. I don't; as I've said, all's fair in love, war, and capitalism.

 
You have a special love for Reaper, don't you? lol...
 

Anderton
...my whole point was that it's unrealistic for a company that doesn't have those kind of resources to be able to follow the same pricing structure as one that does. That's not offensive, that's reality.

 
Once again, what is really offensive is berating ("some people have a sense of entitlement") your LOYAL, HONEST CUSTOMERS (no good deed goes unpunished in CakewalkLand, I'll remember when it's time to renew!) for not being willing to pay inflated prices that compensate Cakewalk for piracy and other factors that are not the customer's fault.
 
 
People like you deserve the thieves more than they deserve the honest customers. If I could get a refund I would ask for one today. That's how much your attitude disgusts me...
 

irvin ,
 
What the hell is going on here man ?
 
You went from this guy ,
 
 

irvin
Forced to go into Sonar to enter a musical collaboration with a musician friend in another country, I have come to absolutely love the simplicity of many of the plugins and features (my use of Reaper helps). The thing just works very nicely once past the fairly gentle initial learning curve. Sonar's native plugins sound great with a minimum of bells and whistles - which suits my personal taste: I hate the 'programmer-friendly' cluttered interfaces of a lot of expensive and well-regarded third party products.

So, just. A little rambling note to say Sonar is great, the upgrade price was just right at $120 and I just finished a couple of great-sounding mixes with everything Sonar, except for my un-touchable Clariphonic (best freaking high-frequency enhancer ever) and Phoenixverb.

So, BIG thanks, Cakewalk, and keep those upgrades coming!

 
To a real angry guy , What Changed ?
 
Kenny

Irvin
 
People like you deserve the thieves more than they deserve the honest customers. If I could get a refund I would ask for one today. That's how much your attitude disgusts me...

I am posting this because of two things. 
 
1.  Craig does not need to be defended.  He is a big boy and puts his pants on one leg at a time.  How in the hell is Craig dising his LOYAL CUSTOMERS of Cakewalk?  He does not work for Cakewalk.
 
2.  As a 63 year old, disabled former studio owner, YOUR attitude disgusts me.  Your sense of value is breathtaking.  Were you around in the 70's and 80's when a 1200' reel of good 1/2" tape (like Ampex 456) costs $40 a pop for your 8 track deck?  Running at 15 ips would only give you 30 minutes of recording time.  You either bought the tape or sold your Tascam 80-8 or 38 and did something else. 
 
Try buying health insurance today with that attitude.
 
IMO Sonar is worth a LOT more than $99 per year. 

irvin

Anderton
I'm not telling anyone what they should or should not do or think. I am merely explaining how this business works and the constraints under which companies operate. If you find that offensive, that's your choice.

 
Telling YOUR LOYAL CUSTOMERS (we are here, but we could be at a misspelled Audio site enjoying Sonar for free!) that they have a "sense of entitlement" because they have an idea of how much they are willing to pay is insulting.
 
I find it insulting, personally.

 
PLEASE read what I wrote: "The attitude of some people on this forum..." If you count yourselves among that group, then I suppose you should be offended. If you don't, then you shouldn't be. I think you would have to agree there are some people on this forum who have totally unrealistic expectations about what a company the size of Cakewalk can deliver. These kinds of people are on ALL forums.
 
I believe that what I said is factually correct. If you disagree and believe that all people have totally realistic expectations and no one has a sense of entitlement, that's fine. Then we can have a debate. But when you disagree with something I certainly never meant to imply, and I don't understand why you interpreted what I said that way, then we have a problem that needs to be discussed.
 
If you can find anything factually inaccurate in what I said, then debate that. Resorting to ad hominem arguments based on a misinterpretation serves no purpose. Whether any misinterpretation is due to your not reading what I said carefully enough or my not stating it carefully enough, I do not know. But I would appreciate a discussion based on what I said and if it wasn't clear enough, I would like the opportunity to clarify.
 
Some people. Not loyal customers. Loyal customers are awesome. Some people aren't, like the people who do one post talking about how much Cakewalk sucks because they couldn't get something working immediately, and never return, never call tech support, and never take advantage of the many people here who are willing to help.
 
Some people is the key phrase.