• SONAR
  • Using VST drum machines WITHOUT midi-out (p.2)
2014/03/13 08:29:09
Funkbear
Hi guys, I still get back to this, just because when ever I work with Sonar I get frustrated with these issues.. 
Can I ask one more time that: Why can't I just record VST drum machine, like Drumazon? I can sure freeze it if I've the MIDI information there, but when using Drumazons own internal sequencer I can't record the audio that's coming out. 
 
About exporting midi-files out of Drumazon and then importing them to Sonar: That doesn't work since Drumazon saves patches in .xml format and Sonar want sspl for step sequencer. 
 
About saving/loading Sonar step-sequencer files, I suppose this method starts to work when I've done my own patches for every VST-drum machine, since it seems like different drum machines have different MIDI-channel settings..
 
Anyway, thank you guys! 
2014/03/13 09:41:10
scook
Funkbear
Can I ask one more time that: Why can't I just record VST drum machine, like Drumazon?

http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3000845
2014/03/13 09:44:32
bluzdog
This is not my wheel house but it seems like you should be able to use "bounce to track" or process -> apply effects to render an audio file.
 
Rocky 
2014/03/13 09:46:12
John
No you can't record audio from the D16 to a track in Sonar. But what I think others are trying to say is that the way you are going about it is not the way Sonar is meant to work. 
 
Think of the D16 as exactly what it is and that is a virtual sound module that takes input from the host  i.e. Sonar and turns that into audio.  You have three ways to do this. The first is to use it as a 909 Roland drum machine and use its pattern editor to create the loops you want it to play. Or use the PRV in drum mode to create your patterns in Sonar.  You could also use the Step Sequencer to do the same thing. Me, I would use the last 2 ways and ignore the first way.
 
I think you have a rough idea how to do all this. You just want to play the D16 in real time and record the results. That wont work . However if you think of recording the MIDI that will do the same thing and it will be repeatable. Then all you do is freeze or bounce the MIDI and you will have your audio.  
 
 
2014/03/13 11:03:37
Funkbear
John! Thank you for your reply! 
 
Unfortunately Drumazon doesn't have MIDI-output for some reason, I think some other D16 drum-machines don't have either, if it would have MIDI-output I wouldn't have any problems.
 
And yes, I've noticed that Sonar is not meant to work that way, but in my book that's just really weird. Having a patch cable coming from my interfaces outputs to inputs just to be able to record something INSIDE my DAW seems like something I shouldn't have to do.. 
 
Anyway, thank you for your input everybody! 
 
2014/03/13 11:29:19
John
Funkbear
John! Thank you for your reply! 
 
Unfortunately Drumazon doesn't have MIDI-output for some reason, I think some other D16 drum-machines don't have either, if it would have MIDI-output I wouldn't have any problems.
 
And yes, I've noticed that Sonar is not meant to work that way, but in my book that's just really weird. Having a patch cable coming from my interfaces outputs to inputs just to be able to record something INSIDE my DAW seems like something I shouldn't have to do.. 
 
Anyway, thank you for your input everybody! 
 


You don't need MIDI output. You need to trigger the D16 from Sonar. This is done with a MIDI track or clip outputting to the D16. All you want are the sounds it makes. It doesn't matter how that happens. For most of us we find it very easy to use the PRV (Piano Roll View) or the Step Sequencer to lay down the MIDI data.
2014/03/13 13:08:38
brundlefly
John
 
You don't need MIDI output. You need to trigger the D16 from Sonar. This is done with a MIDI track or clip outputting to the D16. All you want are the sounds it makes.



I think what's being missed here by those trying to help is that the D16 is not just a sound module or a typical drum synth that's responding to MIDI sent from the host (either sequenced by the user or dragged into a track from a pattern library in the synth GUI). It's a virtual model of a classic hardware drum machine that generates patterns in real-time based on settings you make in the GUI.
 
Since it doesn't send MIDI Out, and SONAR can't "record" the real-time output internally, there's no way to capture the drum machine's real-time output in SONAR.
 
The only solution to that problem, as the OP had correctly concluded, is a hardware loopback of the audio output of the synth to be recorded in real-time. Some interfaces can do this internally via a digital mixer path that makes it somewhat less awkward and not subject to D/A/D quality losses or amplitude changes.
 
EDIT: I should add that there is the Non-fast-bounce-with-live-input workaround for "recording" soft synth output that could work here, but it's awkward and has limitations. Loopback is ultimately a lot simpler.
 
 
2014/03/13 15:13:50
dcumpian
It does suck that Drumazon doesn't output standard Midi files. That would certainly make it a lot more useable.
 
Regards,
Dan
 
2014/03/13 18:29:12
Stone House Studios

Control

Drumazon has extensive midi control. Midi notes can be used to trigger each individual sound. Alternatively, the internal sequencer can be used. This can be set to play using Drumazon's internal clock or set to synchronize perfectly to the host sequencer.
Most of Drumazon's parameters can be automated within the host and also controlled using MidiCC with an external controller. An easy-to-use Midi Learn function allows reassignment of any of the parameters.
 
I'm not understanding how this is different then 100 other drum synths.  BFD does this and most of us (sic) use it.
 
Brian
 
 
2014/03/13 22:59:43
tlw
Drumazon. It's been a while since I used it, but are you saying you want to use the built-in sequencer, but change which pattern is playing as required?
 
To do that I suggest you use Drumazon in Host rather than Native mode.
 
You then need to set up a MIDI track with its output pointing at Drumazon (which should be in the list of MIDI inputs in the pull-down).
 
If you insert Drumazon as a synth without selecting a track, you get a pop-up window. In that window select seperate MIDI and Audio tracks.
 
That MIDI track is where you record the notes that tell Drumazon to change pattern. You don't need a keyboard controller to do this, you can just write the notes in the MIDI track using piano roll view. You can also put in any CCs you need as well.
 
To sequence in Sonar, then have Drumazon play the sequence, insert Drumazon as above. You then use PRV or the Sonar step-sequencer to sequence your patterns in the MIDI track. The MIDI track then tells Drumazon what to play.
 
You do not need to record the output of Drumazon because the audio track created when you inserted the synth will do that for you. You can also get a "copy" of the audio by using  the "bounce to clips" or "bounce to tracks" function.
 
In Sonar (and every other DAW I can think of), VSTi routing works like this:
 
Controller (if used) -> MIDI track -> VSTi -> Audio track. An "instrument track" is actually combines the MIDI and audio track so it works as both. I prefer to keep them seperate as I find it easier to work with.
 
Is that any help?
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