I've mentioned this before but I don't think it went anywhere...
 
Right now in Sonar, if you have a MIDI track feeding into a VSTi and you mute the VSTi audio track, the MIDI track also gets muted automatically. The problem with this is that if you then unmute the audio track again, the flow of MIDI data would have been interrupted and you could end up with missing notes (since it missed the note-on event), out-of-sync controller data, etc.
 
I think a good way to solve this issue is to have an option to unlink the audio and MIDI mute buttons, so that when you mute an audio track, it doesn't mute the related MIDI track as well. This way, the VSTi keeps getting fed with the correct, uninterrupted stream of MIDI data whether its output is muted or not. Then the instant you unmute it, you will have accurate audio output and no missing notes etc.
 
The same should apply to solo buttons. When soloing an audio track, only the audio outputs of other tracks should be muted, not their MIDI tracks too.
 
To see what this would sound like, play a song that uses MIDI data to drive VSTis. Then while playing back, randomly mute/unmute and solo/unsolo random tracks. You will notice that many times notes will be lost due to the note-on events being missed. Now freeze all tracks and do the same again. See how smooth the mute/solo operations have become now? No more dropped notes or out-of-sync controller data. It can behave exactly the same way if we can only unlink the audio and MIDI track mute and solo buttons.
 
Is there any specific use case where we actually need the MIDI tracks to be muted in addition to the audio tracks? I can't think of any.

'Is there any specific use case where we actually need the MIDI tracks to be muted in addition to the audio tracks? I can't think of any.'

Saving of CPU power.
Isn't there an option to do this in preferences to keep plugins running all the time?

Cheers...

No need for a feature request, there's already an easy solution. Just hold Ctrl when you click on the Audio track's mute button.
 
If you don't want to be bothered with holding Ctrl every time you want to mute, then assign the Audio track's mute button to a group. It will now operate independently of the MIDI track when you click on it.
 
Both functionalities also hold true for Solo buttons.

CakeAlexS
'Is there any specific use case where we actually need the MIDI tracks to be muted in addition to the audio tracks? I can't think of any.'

Saving of CPU power.
Isn't there an option to do this in preferences to keep plugins running all the time?

Cheers...

Alex, mute/solo is not a tool to be used for conserving CPU. In most cases muting a VSTi won't save any CPU anyway (try it). If one relies on enough tracks to be muted in order not to experience dropouts, then a different way needs to be found to reduce CPU usage.
 

Anderton
No need for a feature request, there's already an easy solution. Just hold Ctrl when you click on the Audio track's mute button.
 
If you don't want to be bothered with holding Ctrl every time you want to mute, then assign the Audio track's mute button to a group. It will now operate independently of the MIDI track when you click on it.
 
Both functionalities also hold true for Solo buttons.

 
Anderton, when I hold down Ctrl while clicking a mute button, the MIDI track no longer mutes, however some other unrelated tracks suddenly becomes muted. Even random tracks in other folders seem to become muted. Maybe they have become inadvertently grouped together somehow, not sure.
 
I will investigate the grouping option you mention. However it would have been great if one can just have a global option to always unlink MIDI/audio track mute/solo buttons as there really isn't any need for them to be linked at all. That way one doesn't need to fiddle with grouping, and one would want to use grouping for other purposes anyway.
 
 

Also Ctrl-click doesn't make a difference when muting a folder.

SilkTone
Anderton, when I hold down Ctrl while clicking a mute button, the MIDI track no longer mutes, however some other unrelated tracks suddenly becomes muted. Even random tracks in other folders seem to become muted. Maybe they have become inadvertently grouped together somehow, not sure.

 
That's because you're Quick Grouping all the mute buttons. I should have been more specific in case you're not familiar with how Quick Grouping works. If you select the track you want to mute, this will work as you expect. (As an aside Quick Grouping is really useful, check it out. It lets you do wholesale changes of multiple parameters, like changing all the edit filters to Clips or automation, adjusting all Console Emulator controls simultaneously, etc.)
 

I will investigate the grouping option you mention. However it would have been great if one can just have a global option to always unlink MIDI/audio track mute/solo buttons as there really isn't any need for them to be linked at all.

 
I haven't thought through all the possible use cases of multitimbral instruments, multiple MIDI tracks within a folder, MIDI tracks going to different instruments from the same folder (which aren't muted when you mute the primary instrument), etc. I'll see if Noel has any insights as to whether there are use cases that benefit from linking, or perhaps whether this functionality is embedded so deep in the code that changing it would be really difficult regardless.
 
I saw your comment about how muting a VSTi doesn't save CPU but I suspect the muting of MIDI data dates back to when MIDI tracks with lots of controller data, particularly aftertouch and poly aftertouch, could choke a system. I assume the reasoning was "Well if they're not listening to the audio, then we can avoid processing the MIDI data and save CPU power." Even when Sonar was first introduced this remained a problem. However, I think most systems these days could cope with running lots of MIDI data all the time.
 
 

That way one doesn't need to fiddle with grouping, and one would want to use grouping for other purposes anyway.

You don't have to actually group things together, just assign any button you don't want subjected to the linking to a group. You can have an unlimited number of groups so you wouldn't be using up anything you wanted to use elsewhere. But really, the ctrl-click option is easiest for me, because I use a lot of multi-timbral instruments so am often muting some MIDI tracks but not others. Sometimes that's easier than disabling individual instruments' audio within the virtual instrument.

SilkTone
Also Ctrl-click doesn't make a difference when muting a folder.

I think you would want the folder to be a "master" control for everything - enable/disable record, mute, solo, echo input, etc. Otherwise it could get messy with instruments having multiple outputs and multiple MIDI tracks if some audio and/or MIDI tracks within the folder were muted (or soloed) and some weren't. Would the folder button invert the current states, affect only tracks in a certain state, etc. I think the idea of "master" controls at the folder level, with the ability to open it and customize settings within the folder, makes sense.
 
Probably the ideal implementation for you would be:

• All MIDI tracks left running all the time (unless you specifically went in and muted them)
• If you muted an audio track within a folder, it would mute only that track's audio output
• If you muted the folder, it would mute all audio outputs within the folder

I've alerted Noel to this thread in case he has any comments.

Okay, I received an answer from Noel (thanks, Noel!). It relates to multi-timbral situations with multiple tracks:
 
"The smart mute/solo behavior has been that way by design since SONAR 2 when the synth rack was implemented. It's documented in the help here.
 
"Essentially when you solo or mute the synth audio track it auto mutes all associated MIDI tracks but only when all synth audio outs are muted in a multi out synth. When you mute a single synth midi track it locates the synth audio track(s) and only mutes it when all related MIDI tracks are muted." 
 
He mentioned that with Mute and Solo functionality appearing in the Track view, Console view, Synth rack, and the plug-in headers themselves, modifying it would be quite an undertaking.
 
The workaround option of using Ctrl-click on the audio Mute button (assuming that track is selected) or assigning it to a group works very well in Console view, because the audio and MIDI tracks aren't contained in a folder. So, once you've assigned the mute to a group, muting and unmuting remains only one click away, yet the MIDI track is not muted.
 
Another workaround is to right-click on the track's fader (or level control in track view), and set the snap-to value to current. Then you can bring it down to zero to silence the audio or not all the way if you want to "dim" it, and double-click on the fader to bring it back to where it was. You can have separate/independent snap-to value settings in the Inspector, Console, and Track View, so you don't have to give up a "preferred" setting.
 
Hope this helps.

>Is there any specific use case where we actually need the MIDI tracks to be muted in addition to the audio tracks? I can't think of any.

Saving of CPU power.

> Alex, mute/solo is not a tool to be used for conserving CPU.


I didn't say it was a tool, I was attempting to answer the question.  I was assuming that if you mute the MIDI track it would stop playing the synth therefore conserving CPU. That would be a valid use case especially in scenarios with lots and lots of tracks. Of course there are other ways of doing it as well...
 
Anyway appears Craig and Noel has explained it pretty clearly thanks.
 
Cheers...
 

SilkTone

CakeAlexS
'Is there any specific use case where we actually need the MIDI tracks to be muted in addition to the audio tracks? I can't think of any.'

Saving of CPU power.
Isn't there an option to do this in preferences to keep plugins running all the time?

Cheers...

Alex, mute/solo is not a tool to be used for conserving CPU. In most cases muting a VSTi won't save any CPU anyway (try it). If one relies on enough tracks to be muted in order not to experience dropouts, then a different way needs to be found to reduce CPU usage.

 
I just received more info from Noel, and actually, muting the MIDI track DOES impact CPU because as Noel says:
 
"Back when I did this in 2002 it was done to avoid sending the MIDI to the synth to prevent unnecessary processing when the audio is muted. Processing MIDI takes CPU cycles from the synth since it needs to render
the MIDI irrespective of the synth audio track mute state."
 
So, with people running CPU-hungry synths like Diva etc., having "all MIDI all the time" seems like it could be problematic. Of course you could go in and manually mute MIDI tracks to mute the audio and preserve CPU cycles, but then you're just basically duplicating what happens now...or mute only the audio but keep the MIDI data, and pay the CPU penalty.
 
Comments?