• Computers
  • Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SATA
2018/01/23 17:52:34
aidanodr
Hi Guys,
 
Im not sure why I never thought of this .. and me, years in IT and puters :D .. But the idea of replacing the DVD drive in your laptop with a HDD CADDY.
 
I have a Dell Inspiron 17" 7737 Core i5 with 16GB Ram and 1TB sata.
 
So I am considering dumping the unused DVD Drive and replacing it with this:
 
https://hddcaddy.com/en/dell-hdd-caddy/567-dell-inspiron-17-7000-hdd-caddy.html
 

 
Pop my 1TB Sata into that for DATA D: drive. Then buy a Crucial 1TB SSD as my main drive from here:

http://eu.crucial.com/eur/en/ct1000mx500ssd1
 
Any one else here do this? Used a HDD Caddy? 

Thoughts

Aidan
2018/01/23 19:11:12
Starise
Sounds like a great idea. You can still buy a usb dvd drive if the need ever arises. I wouldn't invest too much in an older laptop. For those who use a laptop and have huge sample libraries or lots of project files, hard drive space can be like real estate in Hawaii.
2018/01/23 19:16:10
aidanodr
Starise
Sounds like a great idea. You can still buy a usb dvd drive if the need ever arises. I wouldn't invest too much in an older laptop. For those who use a laptop and have huge sample libraries or lots of project files, hard drive space can be like real estate in Hawaii.




Well, in my case this laptop is spot on. Only bottle neck is the Sata HDD for my DAWs and VSTis. Buy an SSD drive for it .. I can use that drive also in Newer laptop if that happens

Though it is an older laptop it is still zippy and nice to work with. Also has an NVIDIA Card in it :D
 
 
2018/01/24 02:54:29
jimfogle
Prior to spending the money you may want to run a program like CPU-Z just to learn a little more about the current hardware inside your laptop.  For instance, after running the program I found out my laptop has a hard drive that spins at 5400 rpm and is connected to a SATA-2 buss with a data transfer rate of 3 GB per second.
 
What that means realistically in my case is replacing the hard drive with a SSD drive will change read speed somewhat but not as much as you would expect.
 
https://www.cpuid.com/softwares/cpu-z.html
2018/01/24 15:04:21
abacab
jimfogle
Prior to spending the money you may want to run a program like CPU-Z just to learn a little more about the current hardware inside your laptop.  For instance, after running the program I found out my laptop has a hard drive that spins at 5400 rpm and is connected to a SATA-2 buss with a data transfer rate of 3 GB per second.
 
What that means realistically in my case is replacing the hard drive with a SSD drive will change read speed somewhat but not as much as you would expect.
 
https://www.cpuid.com/softwares/cpu-z.html




I wouldn't worry about the SATA-II limits.  My desktop mobo only has SATA-II, and when I swapped my 7200RPM HDD for a SSD (SATA-III capable), there was still a huge jump in performance.  It's definitely worth it!!!
 
It's like 100x faster on the random reads/writes.  It does max out below the physical limits (300MB/s) of SATA-II on the sequential reads/writes, but that is still over 2x the speed I get on my 7200RPM data HDD.
 

 
2018/01/24 15:12:04
abacab
aidanodr
Hi Guys,
 
Im not sure why I never thought of this .. and me, years in IT and puters :D .. But the idea of replacing the DVD drive in your laptop with a HDD CADDY.
 
I have a Dell Inspiron 17" 7737 Core i5 with 16GB Ram and 1TB sata.
 
So I am considering dumping the unused DVD Drive and replacing it with this:
 
https://hddcaddy.com/en/dell-hdd-caddy/567-dell-inspiron-17-7000-hdd-caddy.html
 

 
Pop my 1TB Sata into that for DATA D: drive. Then buy a Crucial 1TB SSD as my main drive from here:

http://eu.crucial.com/eur/en/ct1000mx500ssd1
 
Any one else here do this? Used a HDD Caddy? 

Thoughts

Aidan




I have heard that works well, and many have said that to use a laptop for serious DAW work, it is always wise to get one with an extra drive bay.  More like a desktop config that way!
 
I have heard a few issues with some laptop BIOS not wanting to recognize the SSD, if both drives are connected initially.  The recommendation was to first clone your boot drive to the new SSD, disconnect the HDD, then connect only the SSD to the main drive bay for the first boot, let the BIOS get settled, then add the secondary drive.
 
May be worth looking at a 7200rpm laptop drive for that caddy, if performance is the goal, or even a 2nd SSD! 
 
Good luck!
2018/01/24 16:23:29
Jim Roseberry
Off-the-shelf PC laptops are fine if you're working with ASIO buffer sizes of 256-samples or above.
 
Working with super small ASIO buffer sizes is where they're problematic.
ie: If you try playing large/complex sample libraries (like The Grandeur for Kontakt) at ASIO buffer size of 64-samples (or lower), that's where the wheels start to fall off.  
 
Even with a well-spec'd recent make model (7700QH, 16GB RAM, M.2 Ultra SSDs) with performance throttling turned off (which makes the CPU run hot - read loud) and the machine fully optimized; load up The Grandeur (streaming from a M.2 Ultra NVMe drive that sustains 3200MB/Sec) and step on the sustain pedal and gliss up/down the keyboard several times.  Now let off the pedal and immediately play a two hand chord.  You'll often hear a hiccup... though not every time.
That may or may not bother the end-user. 
It drives be crazy (I'm very biased when it comes to performance - for obvious reasons).
Even playing simpler parts (much less stress on the machine), there's often a little hiccup in the audio when playing this type of sample library at super small ASIO buffer sizes.
 
As much as it pains me to say this (I loath Apple and their ideology), the top-tier MacBook Pro can do this... at a 64-sample buffer size... with zero glitches.  Same basic specs on the hardware...
 
You can get/build a custom Clevo laptop that uses a desktop 8700k CPU.
It'll also play this type of sample-library (heavy loads) glitch-free at super small ASIO buffer sizes.
Of course, it's expensive, bulky, and has poor battery-life...
 
A well configured desktop PC with 8700k will breeze thru running The Grandeur at a 48-sample ASIO buffer size... but is more of a pain to cart to gigs.
 
It's just plain fun to play that type of piano library... with such immediate response.
 
 
 
2018/01/24 21:08:37
Hugh Mann
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2018/01/25 18:18:30
Jim Roseberry
Hugh Mann
 
I keep seeing you post this kind of advice.  I gotta say I don't fully agree with it.  Its misleading and some what self serving since you are, apparently, in the business of selling the type of high end machines you recommend.   Your statement:
 
>Off-the-shelf PC laptops are fine if you're working with ASIO buffer sizes of 256-samples or above<
 
This is simply not true.  Your statement is said as an absolute truth,  and it isn't.  I use a dell inspiron 7000 with a 7th gen i7.  I can get latency down to 48, if im just playing drums with it.  64 with drums and synths playing together. I play ezdrummer and bfd off of a roland v drum set and I get no hic ups or stutters.  I'm using a focusrite solo 2nd gen.  Prior to that I used a Toshiba laptop in the same way,  with no issues either. Got that one down to 64,  but its an older laptop.   I also use Kontakt and a variety of vst synths. I play in a band live and just bring the laptop and controller.  No issues.  I did configure a few things on the laptop,  but not much.  I set it to high performance,  put it in airplane mode,  disabled a few services, and I'm good to go. 

 
Believe whatever you want... but it is absolutely true. 
I've recently tested numerous off-the-shelf laptops (including the Dell XPS-15).
The MacBook Pro (which I don't sell BTW) is the only off-the-shelf laptop with a 7700HQ CPU that could play complex sample libraries (under heavy load) completely clean at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size.
NOTE:  I'm not talking "babying" the machine playing three note chords or a programmed drum part that's pulling 4 voices of polyphony.  I'm talking the ability to fully play whatever you want, with numerous simultaneous advanced libraries loaded/layered/split/etc... and being able to hit the sustain pedal and play heavy polyphony parts (with zero glitches).
Your Dell with a 7700HQ can not do what I'm talking about completely glitch-free.  
If you haven't disabled CPU throttling (SpeedStep, C-States, etc), your odds of glitches are even higher.
The reason why is DPC Latency... and has nothing to do with my opinion/bias/etc.
Even with everything possible disabled on your Dell, its DPC Latency is going to be 200-500uSec.
That is NOT low enough to play back heavy loads (completely glitch-free) at super small ASIO buffer sizes.
The smaller the ASIO buffer size, the more critical low/consistent DPC Latency becomes.
 
Load up Ableton Live with your audio interface set to a 48-sample ASIO buffer size.
Now bring up Live's audio preferences.  Go to the Audio stress-test section, bump the CPU load up to 80% and start the test-tone.  Your Dell won't sustain that test-tone indefinitely without glitching.
 
Open Ableton Live at a 48-sample ASIO buffer size, load up The Grandeur and run the type of stress-test I mentioned.  Step on the sustain pedal and gliss up/down a 61-key keyboard about 5-6 times.  Now let off the sustain pedal and immediately play a two-hand chord.  As I mentioned, it will glitch.  It may not happen every time... but you can absolutely get it to glitch.  It's easy to see/hear for yourself.
 
A well configured desktop machine can do both of the above tests... with absolutely zero glitches.
Why? 
Because there's a lot more control over components, controlling heat, the ability to disable any performance- throttling, and the ability to lock all CPU cores at the highest TurboBoost frequency.
 
The physics of small/tight enclosures necessitates performance-throttling.
This is why "mobile" CPUs exist.  Ever wonder why a NUC uses "mobile" CPU and laptop components?
Currently, Mac OSX deals with performance-throttling FAR better than Win10.
 
I'm not a fan of laptops... because they simply don't deliver the level of performance that I want/expect.
A laptop that runs a desktop CPU is the closest you'll come to the performance of a desktop machine.
They are expensive, bulky, and have short battery-life. 
 
BTW, Does your Focusrite actually go down to a 48-sample ASIO buffer size?  
Focusrite audio interfaces (compared to the likes of RME and MOTU) are known to use a larger hidden safety-buffer... which results in higher round-trip latency.
You might actually want to look in Ableton Live (at the audio output latency) and see if it matches the 2.65ms "Output Latency" to which I'm referring in the above examples.
 
As far as my post being self-serving, I've been a Cakewalk user and forum member since the CompuServe days.
I'm going to guess I've helped more folks over the past 20+ years than yourself.
Yes, I made clear that I'm biased... and it's well known what I do for a living.
There is nothing factually incorrect with anything that I've said.
If your intention is playing advanced sample-libraries under heavy load (at super small ASIO buffer sizes)... and you're set on using a laptop, you'll do better with a MacBook Pro than any off-the-shelf PC laptop.
And yes, a well configured desktop can breeze thru the above (because the level of control over components/configuration)... and do it at significantly lower CPU use than any PC laptop or Mac.
ie: The 8700k (desktop CPU) with all six cores locked at 4700MHz will smoke the 7700HQ (mobile CPU).
 
All this said, if you're happy with your Dell, fantastic.
But we're talking about two very different circumstances... and levels of expectation.
2018/01/25 20:26:21
Hugh Mann
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