• Hardware
  • MIDI or not MIDI? That is the question.
2015/08/06 15:52:39
DuckRumble
My Windows 7 based home studio was fine but old; it was also full of dog-hair so Windows 10 inspired me to build something new and improved so I did. I used to get good service out of a Creative Fatal1ty X-Fi which had an XG-MIDI synth built in. Thinking I wouldn't need this in the 21st Century I took that out and got a USB M-Audio, M-Track external soundcard/interface. I installed Windows 10 and had to get Sonar Artist to replace Sonar 6 to get driver compatibility for ASIO but the price was very good so I was happy about that. 
 
Now I have super-low latency and everything is fixed with Audio.
 
However, the MIDI became more interesting when I found that Sonar Artist has a great plugin for drums which sound great in my room through the M-Audio, external USB soundcard/amp and speakers. Also, I found I can get a USB to MIDI in and out lead to hook up my Roland piano as a controller, or my MIDI drumkit, I suppose. Maybe MIDI - I thought - is still relevant and perky.
 
Then I found I had an issue I hadn't expected and I wonder if anyone can suggest a solution? 
 
With the Creative card, a track of MIDI could be soloed and recorded by playing it whilst the PC was set in a mode where it could hear everything going through the soundcard. This option has vanished and now I only see my M-Audio in and out and my bluetooth headphones. There seems to be nothing I can do to actually use these great drums in Artist because I can't record them to audio. In fact, no MIDI will record, even though I can hear it fine.
 
I may have to splash out on a USB MIDI sound module (if I can find one) and plug that into the M-Track audio socket. Are there any USB, home-studio priced ones around this decade?
 
The GS Wavetable sounds are far better than I expected and they're surely in there with Sonar in my PC. I've poked many, many things and found no way to get them to be heard as audio so that I can actually use them. I even tried putting the X-Fi back in and running its output to the M-Track. It sounded like a clown being drowned by a ninja on playback.
 
Is there some way I could get this MIDI that I can hear loud and clear to actually record? It seems nuts that it sounds so great in the room but I can't actually use any of it in Sonar...
 
Thanks,
Steve UK
 
UD3 mobo, 8350 at 4.0 GHZ, 16GB 1866 RAM, Nvidia GT240 graphics card, M-Audio M-Track,
Win 10 (with Cortana and all the spyware turned off).
2015/08/06 16:11:16
dcumpian
This is kind of a lengthy subject, but what you want to do is add the drum VST, then create a midi track and set its output to the drum VST. Or you can add the VST as a simple instrument which should do all of this for you automatically. I prefer using the synth rack and adding my own midi tracks, but use whatever works for you.
 
The Sonar documentation has lots of the details around this.
 
Regards,
Dan
 
 
2015/08/06 17:10:17
DuckRumble
Thanks very much, Dan. I shall give that a shot. I appreciate your help.
2015/08/06 18:44:02
batsbrew
even if you do not usually DO midi,
it's a good idea to have the capability,
especially if you end up working with other people,
or on other people's projects.
 
2015/08/06 18:58:04
mettelus
Also be sure to echo the VSTi. SONAR captures the MIDI performance, so the soft synth actually performs each time it plays. There is more possible after this stage, but is basically MIDI in->soft synth->audio out.
2015/08/06 20:02:17
DuckRumble
Thanks for the replies. I'm currently sending MIDI to the audio track where I have the SI drum kit synth enabled. I couldn't record so I dragged and pasted multiple copies of a clip straight off the list in the synth. I can play that but I still can't record it as audio. The audio track shows a monitored signal if I don't arm it to record. The MIDI and audio tracks have linked but when do I arm the audio track, echoed or not echoed, that signal vanishes so I get a flat line.
 
Here is a picture of the line: ____________________________________
 
I wonder if my use of an external USB soundcard, good though it is, might be causing this? I don't have my board's Realteks enabled. I might try them next. 
2015/08/06 20:54:42
dcumpian
Solo both tracks, select the midi clip, then select Tracks -> Bounce to Track. This creates the audio. You cannot record the audio from a VSTi (yet). It is coming in a future release.
 
Regards,
Dan
2015/08/07 10:17:21
DuckRumble
I'm still struggling. I found I couldn't see 'bounce to track' - just 'bounce to clips' and I didn't see anything happen when I tried it. I'm thinking my M-Track is causing me difficulties. All this just used to work internally with Creative's Fatal1ty X-Fi card which had an onboard XG-MIDI synth and external connector. 
 
I dug out my ancient Yamaha MU10 today and rushed off to buy a USB MIDI lead for it. I got it to play from Sonar but its audio output, though clear on headphones, wouldn't record no matter what I tried to configure. I could see a signal entering the M-Track but nothing came right. I tried to find suitable ins and outs but got nowhere. I think I saw a recorded audio track at one giddy moment but that wouldn't actually play back on the M-Track. It's as if the PC chose between the MU10 or the M-Track but didn't like both. If I put headphones on the synth I'm golden but what use is that?
 
I'm tempted to go back to the store and change the M-Track for a good PCI soundcard. Having looked at them online, I can't see one with a built in MIDI synth like my Fatal1ty had. It's as if modern gear and Microsoft are conspiring to phase MIDI out altogether. Just as Sonar has such nice features as drum synths, too! Even so, it may be that a card in a PCI socket is worth two in a USB... 
 
The M-Track makes GS wavetable output sound excellent. Not like the rinky-tink Realtek rendition. If only I could record MIDI as audio internally to Sonar that would be perfect. What would have been even better is if Creative had supported the Fatal1ty and not called it 'end of life' when I tried to find drivers that Windows 10 liked. If I rolled back to Windows 7 on my old card I wouldn't be looking so frowny. I'm trying to embrace the budget techno-future but my brand-spanking new Sonar Artist, brand new computer guts, and brand new USB external soundcard seem to find MIDI too much. Nobody knows what MIDI even is at my local tech store. It's like explaining how life was in ancient times to cheerful children.
 
Which is why I'm thankful for your suggestions. For now I'm going to drag my MIDI drum kit into my music room and see if I can at least lay down an audio track on that. If you have any more thoughts I'm very interested to hear them. I wonder what audio-based solutions Cakewalk may have to offer? Acid Music loops work fine if I drag them in. I could try a demo of the next Sonar up, too. Maybe it has some magic beans.
2015/08/07 12:02:34
DuckRumble
Ah ha! There was something on the M-Track that I'd got turned up but when I turned it down was there! Bit counter intuitive but now things are making a noise at last! I can't believe this MU10 survived all these years in the back of a cupboard. I'm going to waste many happy hours with the old MIDI after all. Excellent.
2015/08/07 12:36:59
Cactus Music
If your Keyboard controller and Drum set do not have USB for midi transmition you should have bought an Audio interface with midi ports. 
If you just bought that interface consider returning it and buying one with MIDI ports. 
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