• Hardware
  • Please Advise: 6i6 vs. UR-44 (Now With a Field Report) (p.7)
2015/07/14 17:57:36
Larry Jones
I'm the OP in this thread and you've all been supportive and helpful, so I thought I should report in.
 
To recap: The only "interface" I've ever used with my DAW is an ancient M-Audio Audiophile 2496 PCI card. It was the little brother to the Delta series, and it always worked for me, but it had limited I/O. Worse, it looked like there were not going to be any new drivers. I'm on Win 7. I don't even know if it will work on Windows 8, much less 10. So I went looking for a new interface.My biggest issue after audio quality was latency: I typically record electric guitar through an amp sim in the DAW, which means I have to monitor at the very end of the complete round trip -- through the mixer input, into the PC, through Sonar and the amp sim and back out to the monitors. With the old PCI card. the latency in this round trip was negligible. But apparently PCI interfaces are going away. Would a USB2 interface be fast enough for me?
 
I didn't understand most of what you all told me here. I was looking for somebody to say "This box here, for this price, will do what you want." Instead I got theory and numbers, which I am not good at. I don't blame you for not answering my specific question the way I wanted it answered. How could anybody else know what level of latency I could tolerate? In the end I figured I just had to work it out myself, face-to-face as it were, with a real interface. So I picked up the Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 (Note: I intend to use this with a laptop sometimes, so it had to be USB, not Firewire). I've only played with it for a couple of hours, and here's what I've found: It works fine! According to the readout in the Sonar Driver Settings screen it's a lot slower than my M-Audio card, but it's not bad enough to throw off my playing. Also, I have loaded the most complicated of my current projects and experimented with playing the soft synths that are already part of those projects, and got similar results -- the latency is within acceptable limits for me.
 
For those who might still be interested, here are some numbers. Looking at them, it seems that the PCI card was quite a bit "better" than the Scarlett, and yet I am not having a problem with this amount of latency. There must be something I'm missing about latency, I guess:
 
M-Audio Audiophile 2496 PCI card, sample rate 96k, 24 bit, buffer size 256 samples
     ASIO reported latencies (includes buffer and hardware latencies)
     Input: 3.1 msec.   299 samples
     Output: 3.0 msec.   284 samples
     Total Roundtrip: 6.1 msec.   583 samples
 
M-Audio Audiophile 2496 PCI card, sample rate 44.1k, 24 bit, buffer size 64 samples*
     ASIO reported latencies (includes buffer and hardware latencies)
     Input: 2.4 msec.   107 samples
     Output: 2.1 msec.   92 samples
     Total Roundtrip: 4.5 msec.   199 samples
 
Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, sample rate 44.1k, 24 bit, buffer size 4.0 msec.**
     ASIO reported latencies (includes buffer and hardware latencies)
     Input: 9.4 msec.   413 samples
     Output: 13.4 msec.   590 samples
     Total Roundtrip: 22.7 msec.   1003 samples
 
I always ran the M-Audio card at 96K, but before I installed the Scarlett I tested it at 44.1 because that seemed to be what most of you are doing. *For that particular test I lowered the buffer setting to 64 samples, although I didn't try to do any serious recording with these settings. I inserted an Addictive Drum track and noodled around on guitar, and there were no artifacts, so who knows? It might have been stable. Mainly I wanted to show everybody what the numbers looked like.
 
**On the Scarlett you can't set the buffer size in samples -- you have to use time. I started at 10 msec. and lowered it in steps until the latency was acceptable, which turned out to be 4.0 msec. I don't know how to translate that to samples, so I don't know how these settings compare.
 
General observations: My Schecter Blackjack with Seymore Duncan pickups breaks up the Scarlett's "Instrument" inputs, even with the pad. I have to use the "Line" setting in Mix Control. The knobs on this box are too small and too close to the edges of the fascia, thus too hard to see and use. I expect I'll get used to it, though, because -- and I hope I'm not imagining this -- everything sounds snappier through this box! I used to run the M-Audio card out through a mixer and then to the monitors. I boosted the bottom end a bit to compensate for my small nearfield speakers. Without this extra layer of electronics the sound is crisper and airier. I was never comfortable with the bass-boost kludge, but I felt I had to do something to keep myself from mixing everything with too much low end. My wife will be delighted to learn that I now need bigger speakers.
 
It's been a great learning experience, and it ain't over yet. Thanx everybody!
2015/07/15 03:35:40
jbraner
Thanks for that detailed report Larry!
I think it's going to be the same for all of us - that we'll never be 100% sure until we take the plunge ourselves ;-)
 
I haven't taken the plunge yet - and I think I'll be waiting until the summer is over. I'm like you - and will have to try it all out for myself. I just made sure that if I buy somethiing through Amazon - that they'll let me return it (within 30 days, with origianl packing yada yada) if it doesn't work well for me. I'll certainly report back (either here or one of the other similar threads) though.
 
On paper, your 22ms RT latency looks awfully high - but if if "feels" OK playing the guitar (and I'll be doing the exact same thing) then it sounds like you are all set ;-)
 
Please keep us up to date with how it goes.
2015/07/15 09:10:46
charlyg
Something is fishy. That RT latency needs to be 10 or less for John(guitar) to be happy when recording on my 2i2.
2015/07/15 12:51:46
batsbrew
this is why i've stayed with my Maudio Audiophile 192 card for so long......
 
i have separate preamps, and outboard compressor, that i can setup anyway i want BEFORE i hit the convertors, 
and the latency is usually better than most usb setups.
 
but i'm on WINxp, which is rock solid with the old maudio drivers...
 
and i'm soon to upgrade my DAW to WIN 8, with new hardware, and i'm not sure if my old maudio card will still work with it.
 
no supported.
 
 
2015/07/15 13:27:18
Larry Jones
jbraner
 On paper, your 22ms RT latency looks awfully high - but if if "feels" OK playing the guitar (and I'll be doing the exact same thing) then it sounds like you are all set ;-)

 
charlyg
Something is fishy. That RT latency needs to be 10 or less for John(guitar) to be happy when recording on my 2i2.

Guys, thanks for your observations, and you're both right. I think I may have been fooled by my own expectations. That is, I expected this box to be a lot worse than my old interface, and it wasn't, so I thought it was actually acceptable. But after I wrote my report I went back and played guitar some more and it was not acceptable. I changed my settings to this:

Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, sample rate 96k, 24 bit, buffer size 2.0 msec.
     ASIO reported latencies (includes buffer and hardware latencies)
     Input: 4.6 msec.   443 samples
     Output: 6.6 msec.   635 samples
     Total Roundtrip: 11.2 msec.   1078 samples
 
I can live with this. I increased the sample rate from 44.1 to 96 and reduced the buffer size from 4 msec. to 2 msec. The Sonar-reported RTL is now about double the 6.1 msec. I was getting with my M-Audio PCI card. The latency (at 11.2 msec.) feels decent while I'm playing, but I am still confused by the fact that I can't get it any better on paper. And I also don't know yet what it will be like on a project with a lot of soft synths and 20 audio tracks.
 
So for now I'm gonna say the 6i6 is usable for my purposes, but just barely. I have to push it to the maximum sample rate and almost the minimum buffer size to get it to perform half as well as my PCI card. It does sound better, and as long as nothing happens during projects to slow it down I should be OK. But those of you who need RTL<10 msec., this might not be the right box for you.
 
(charleyg, if you're reading, what are your settings?)
2015/07/15 13:35:25
Larry Jones
batsbrew
this is why i've stayed with my Maudio Audiophile 192 card for so long......
 

Yeah, me too with the 2496 card. I got the new interface originally so I could hook it up to a laptop and record on location, but I'm doing all the testing on the main desktop DAW.
batsbrew
i have separate preamps, and outboard compressor, that i can setup anyway i want BEFORE i hit the convertors, 
and the latency is usually better than most usb setups.
 
but i'm on WINxp, which is rock solid with the old maudio drivers...
 
and i'm soon to upgrade my DAW to WIN 8, with new hardware, and i'm not sure if my old maudio card will still work with it.
 
not supported.
 

There's a chance your card (and mine) will work with Win 8 and even Win 10, but there have been no new drivers for a couple of years. I thought it would be prudent to see if I could future-proof my setup, which is why I'm struggling through this scenario now.
 
And may I say you are making amazing music with your "outdated" DAW and your "obsolete" operating system.
2015/07/15 13:40:20
charlyg
4.6
4.6
9.8 RT
24bit 48k 64 samples
 
Do you have the focusrite driver that gives you 3 settings? That is the newest driver, but it may still be in beta..
Anytime you don't have to go outside the PC is a good thing, response wise.
2015/07/15 14:11:59
Larry Jones
charlyg
4.6
4.6
9.8 RT
24bit 48k 64 samples
 
Do you have the focusrite driver that gives you 3 settings? That is the newest driver, but it may still be in beta..
Anytime you don't have to go outside the PC is a good thing, response wise.


If I drop down to 48k my RTL goes up to ~20 msec.
 
I have the version of Mix Control that you get when you register the product. I don't recall seeing a beta available there. What do you mean by "3 settings"?
 
I know about "going outside the PC." Makes me wonder why everybody stopped making PCI interfaces.
2015/07/15 14:25:23
InstrEd
Larry did you check recently?
http://beta.focusrite.com/
Just updated a few days ago with new Beta Driver for Scarlett series
2015/07/15 18:51:30
Larry Jones
InstrEd
Larry did you check recently?
http://beta.focusrite.com/
Just updated a few days ago with new Beta Driver for Scarlett series


I'm on driver version 2.5.1. Just downloaded it yesterday from their registration/download page. On the beta page they seem to be all the way up to v. 3.2.1. That seems like a big jump from the mature one to the first beta. No mention of performance enhancements on the beta page, either, so I think I'll pass for now, but thanks for checking.
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