2007/11/28 19:35:31
Jessie Sammler
Boutique cables are for hobbyists who enjoy the cables for their own sake. They get pleasure from buying and owning something that's well-made and looks cool; most of them probably don't care if they sound any different. The exotic materials are part of the package; they help project an aura of coolness.

Monster is the Wonder Bread of high-end cables. There are companies that do things with their cables that go beyond just thicker wire or different materials; check out MIT of Rocklin, CA.
2007/11/29 10:29:13
lazarous
ORIGINAL: Jessie Sammler
Boutique cables are for hobbyists who enjoy the cables for their own sake. They get pleasure from buying and owning something that's well-made and looks cool; most of them probably don't care if they sound any different. The exotic materials are part of the package; they help project an aura of coolness.

Monster is the Wonder Bread of high-end cables. There are companies that do things with their cables that go beyond just thicker wire or different materials; check out MIT of Rocklin, CA.

Hey, Jessie... I'm familiar with MIT, and have three of their cables with the capacitor networks (two speaker cables and one fo the Bass Guitar-specific instrument cables). They do sound different than regular cables... but not different enough to justify the 5x expenditure it would have cost to buy them had the store I picked them up from not been blowing them out.

I do think you've hit the nail on the head: Boutique cables are about bragging rights, not about sound quality. I'd bet most of them CARE if they sound different, I just doubt if they can TELL. A number of people I know who consider themselves 'audiophiles' have the tinnest ears I've met. Ugh. What they say sounds good sounds terrible to me.

It's an interesting industry... filled with much voodoo. Bose and Monster - two disgusting companies who's claims are rarely based in reality.

Corey
2007/11/29 15:50:56
joshhunsaker
ORIGINAL: lazarous

ORIGINAL: Jessie Sammler
Boutique cables are for hobbyists who enjoy the cables for their own sake. They get pleasure from buying and owning something that's well-made and looks cool; most of them probably don't care if they sound any different. The exotic materials are part of the package; they help project an aura of coolness.

Monster is the Wonder Bread of high-end cables. There are companies that do things with their cables that go beyond just thicker wire or different materials; check out MIT of Rocklin, CA.

Hey, Jessie... I'm familiar with MIT, and have three of their cables with the capacitor networks (two speaker cables and one fo the Bass Guitar-specific instrument cables). They do sound different than regular cables... but not different enough to justify the 5x expenditure it would have cost to buy them had the store I picked them up from not been blowing them out.

I do think you've hit the nail on the head: Boutique cables are about bragging rights, not about sound quality. I'd bet most of them CARE if they sound different, I just doubt if they can TELL. A number of people I know who consider themselves 'audiophiles' have the tinnest ears I've met. Ugh. What they say sounds good sounds terrible to me.

It's an interesting industry... filled with much voodoo. Bose and Monster - two disgusting companies who's claims are rarely based in reality.

Corey


i still think if you made a class A amp that was completely hand-wired with heavy gauge silver which included semi-conductors all having tolerances less than half a percent with a massive toroidal power transformer, 2 farad capacitors, and all of the different stages shielded with 1" thick lead...

you'd have a helluva good sounding amp.
2007/11/29 18:17:03
Jessie Sammler
A number of people I know who consider themselves 'audiophiles' have the tinnest ears I've met. Ugh. What they say sounds good sounds terrible to me.


I knew an audio/video salesman who used to approach customer objections based on sound by starting out, "Well, everybody hears differently, and... " I wonder if some people become "audiophiles" because they have bad hearing and don't know it, and they set out on some Quixotic quest to find a system that makes things sound good to them. By the time they're circling in on ultimate satisfaction, they've got something that sounds so jacked-up that musically-inclined folks with normal hearing would go running from the room upon giving it a listen.

Lets try to test the theory: Have you known any self-styled audiophiles who had really good or great-sounding systems? I've known plenty. I've lived and worked among them.
2007/11/29 18:49:34
mwd
ORIGINAL: lazarous ~ Bose and Monster - two disgusting companies who's claims are rarely based in reality.

Corey


Hey Corey bring me up to speed as to why Bose is being included in this. I know why Monster is.

While I realize Bose is a "niche" and targeted product I've actually heard some pretty good sounding Bose gear.

Twas' a few years ago.

What'd they do.... or not do?

2007/11/29 18:54:04
bitflipper
Most audiophiles do have nice systems, because they have spent a great deal of money on them. Much more than necessary, typically.

The phenomenon has been around since the advent of "hi-fi" in the 60's, when there was a big boost in quality, fueled by widespread interest in stereo. Stereo went from being a curiosity to universal acceptance over the course of that decade. I still remember the first stereo recording I ever heard played on a stereo. It was Magical Mystery Tour. I immediately realized that there was stuff going on in recordings that I hadn't been hearing before, and set about to determine what else was in there that I'd been missing. I found out that there were low frequencies in there that I hadn't heard before, because my speakers were too small. So I got bigger speakers. Then I found out that you need the right kind of speaker enclosure to get those lows. And on and on.

At some point my sound system got good enough that I could hear things like harmonic distortion. Sure enough, an amplifer with 1% THD sounded better than one with 3% THD. But there are diminishing returns. An amplifier with 0.1% THD does not sound different from one with 0.5% THD. Event with 5 times the distortion, the latter is still below the threshhold of perception with anything other than a test tone.

But nobody wants to admit they can't hear the difference, although they fear that someone else can, and will scoff at their high-fidelity system. So the simple solution is to buy very expensive components with great specs. Then you're covered, even if you can't actually hear the difference yourself. Or if, in fact there is any difference at all.

We tend to associate high prices with high quality, even though common sense says that's not always true. Marketers have discovered that if you charge a high price, consumers will presume a high level of quality. If they lack the means to objectively verify that assumption, the lie escapes discovery.

Now the most curious aspect of all this is that people will swear they really can hear subtle differences. I suspect that many are not lying about it, but genuinely believe they hear a difference. And once you've subjectively heard or seen something with your own senses, no amount of objective measurement will dissuade you from believing what you heard or saw.

Try this experiment. Sit somebody down in front of your stereo and play a few seconds of music. Then tell them that you've noticed that the stereo sounds better after it's warmed up. Leave the room for 10 minutes, then come back and play the same music. Ask your subject if he or she can hear the difference. (Note: you're not asking if there IS a difference, only if they can HEAR the difference. The presumption is that there is a difference)

Nearly every time, the subject will hear a difference. Why? Who knows? Maybe they're not sitting in exactly the same position as previously. Whatever the reason, they DO hear a difference.

High-end cable makers love to cite A/B tests to validate their claims. But it's the same scenario. Tell the listener the fancy cables will sound better, and they will. But no cable manufacturer actually submits to double-blind tests! If they did, they'd find that listeners randomly choose A or B as sounding better.

Umm, I'm rambling again. Is it 5:00 yet?
2007/11/29 19:03:33
jacktheexcynic
+1 to what bitflipper said.

on the subject of bose, they aren't suing anyone that i know of, but they do put out high-priced, over-hyped equipment that survives mostly on marketing.
2007/11/29 19:42:36
yep
It would be awfully nice if those who wish to further discuss generalized notions of audio quality could start a new thread, since this is a good one and is in danger of spinning off into a series of disagreements that have nothing whatever to do with the topic at hand.

Cheers.
2007/11/29 22:29:08
Jessie Sammler
Done. Thanks, jack.
2007/11/30 00:21:41
lazarous
ORIGINAL: mwd
ORIGINAL: lazarous ~ Bose and Monster - two disgusting companies who's claims are rarely based in reality.
Corey

Hey Corey bring me up to speed as to why Bose is being included in this. I know why Monster is.

While I realize Bose is a "niche" and targeted product I've actually heard some pretty good sounding Bose gear.

Twas' a few years ago.

What'd they do.... or not do?

Bose has, on occassion and accidentally, made some nice little systems that work for the average person. However, the costs involved in MAKING those systems, and what they SELL the systems for should be illegal. Their budget is 85% marketing/10% cost/5% R&D, as far as I can tell... And I might be being generous about the R&D.

How Monstar and Bose are similar, in my eyes: They both overmarket a product that is, at BEST, mediocre and overpriced. You can ALWAYS find a competing product for substantially less, which sounds better.

ORIGINAL: Jessie Stamler
Lets try to test the theory: Have you known any self-styled audiophiles who had really good or great-sounding systems? I've known plenty. I've lived and worked among them.

Most of them have a system that sounds pretty darn good. A few have systems that cost a fortune and sound like poo, at least to me.

Anyone who spends $3k on an esoteric power cable, which he/she then plugs into a $.59 wall outlet, should be drawn and quartered. I've seen it, and he didn't bat an eye. He could HEAR a difference. No one else in the room could. Whatever.

Corey
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