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  • Could Some Kind Soul Here PLEASE Help Me! (p.3)
2018/05/24 10:26:54
Johnbee58
Thank so much richard, Kalle & Euthymia!
Euth-I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "thin".  I did an earlier take at approx 4" away from the mic and this one was at least 7.  I still wasn't initially happy with it, but I changed my mind a bit after giving my ears a well needed and deserved rest. I'm finding the same is true with this take.  I had at least 8 hours "rest" and this morning it sounds much better (to me) on my Walkman.
 
I seriously was considering purchasing the MXL ribbon, but Bitflipper kind of scared me away from that idea when he said a cheaper ribbon mic could make the situation worse (sorry gswitz).  You are so right that I've spent about as much on gear as  should need to.  Between the Avantone, the Auralex padding and the plugins (which include the Waves Renaissance EQ and the Waves SSL G Channel strip, among others), I've run out of patience on throwing money at this thing.  I'll consider the Bandlab option, but yes, I definitely want to avoid the trap that that poor fellow found himself in with the "rap song" issue.
 
Thanks again!
 
JB
2018/05/24 10:58:07
gswitz
I didn't mean to say only a ribbon. I meant to say consider Mic type. Ldc vs sdc vs dynamic vs ribbon. I know you have a ldc. Most people have dynamics. That's why i focused on ribbon.

Ribbon mics are fragile. I store mine upright. I don't use them with smokers smoking in the room. i wear gloves when handling them. But they are wonderful to me.

My sdcs are probably my next favorite mics.

If you are struggling with your sound, borrow some mics from a friend. Just try different ones. That's all.
2018/05/24 11:19:38
garybrun
If your not happy with the sound you hear in your head.... maybe you have not found the right microphone?
Many stores will let you borrow to try out...  I always recommend this before purchasing a microphone.
2018/05/24 11:32:10
Skyline_UK
I listened carefully all the way through and the things that hit me were:
(1) The melody lines are very complex, if not over complex.  Sorry if that impinges on your request not to critique the song itself, but that's what jumped out at me. It's very difficult to sing with energy, feeling and gusto when you're stepping carefully through a complex melody line, trying to mentally anticipate the next note to be sure you don't sing it wrongly. As I listened I was distracted by the odd journey of the melody lines instead of being drawn into the meaning of the song. 
(2) Yes, it's too high for you in this key, and would no doubt sound better in a lower one.
(3) The EQ seemed toppy, with a lack of body in the vocal, but this is probably related to (2) also.
(4) Some Melodyne pitch correction here and there would be a good idea.
(5) I'd try a smidgeon of reverb on the verses line.
(6) I'm not convinced that some of the special FX in places helped.
 
At this stage, for this song, I don't think the answer lies in buying more gear.
I hope that helps in some small way!
 
 
2018/05/24 11:38:05
Steev
bitflipper
If I was handed that vocal track, my first thought would be "good, I don't have to do much to it". It's raw, but it's good.
 
Of course, you could effect it up but it's not that kind of vocal. Clean and natural is what I'd go for. Which doesn't mean no digital cheating. Just keep it gentle.
 
First up, some conservative pitch correction. Not across the board, just in a few places here and there where there are fast pitch changes that fall a little short. When it comes to pitch editing, less is better than more. Make all your corrections by hand, and don't touch any phrase just because it looks off in the graphic. If you're using Melodyne, also take advantage of its volume editing at this time to lower the loudest words, which will make step two easier. 
 
Next, apply compression. Cakewalk's CA2A is just what the doctor ordered. Don't be afraid to let it do 6-12 dB of compression. You might also consider two-stage compression, with the second stage running as a parallel compressor.
 
Beyond those two standard actions, it's all a matter of taste, and there are gobs of options to choose from. Double-tracking would be good, especially on the chorus. Mix the double -6 to -12 dB below the main vocal, for subtle thickening. Listen to David Gilmour's vocals on Dark Side of the Moon, which are all double-tracked but you'd never know it.
 
I would not apply a lot of reverb to this particular vocal, which would make it sound more distant and less intimate. You could, however, automate the reverb to just add a little sparkle to the end of certain phrases.
 
Another option is delay, again very subtle. If you can hear the delay, there's too much.
 
Getting a bit further out and a little less natural, consider a very light touch of chorus effect. This can be applied very, very subtly. So much so that nobody would ever guess that's what you're doing. 
 
Another neat trick with vocals is distortion. You want to be conservative, of course, but adding a little grit and/or sheen can be very effective. Even on a soft vocal like this. 
 
Oh, and don't worry about your microphone. It's plenty good enough. I love ribbons, but cheap ones can sound awful and they only worsen over time. If you want to experiment, I'd suggest instead picking up an SM-58 for a hundred bucks, or borrow one to try. Sometimes, a cheap mic is just the ticket - it's about matching the device to the voice. But again, your current mic is fine.


WOW talk about covering all the bases, excellent advice bitflipper, clear concise, accurate.


John, if I had a dollar for every time I felt or even heard of somebody never being satisfied with the sound of their own voice it would be l like I hit the Powerball Lottery.
 I have a pretty impressive mic cabinet I collected and built over the years, don't want to brag or drop names, but maybe I should trade some of them in for a new car.
 And that's something I actually should do while I still can because with today's mic manufacturing DAW technologies, spending a lot of money on anything isn't as important or critical as it used to be.
 And I'm familiar with the Avantone, Warm Audio, Audio Technica to name a few and they are as close to being silver bullet mics as any mic can be, but there is no such thing at any price range, you might as well go out and try to catch and find a Unicorn.
 Many don't realize what a great mic an SM58 is because they are so common and cheap. But that didn't stop Michael Jackson from recording mega hit albums with one, I had one for 30 years of live shows until upgrading to the Beta 58, and the only reason for that was because the SM 58 was stolen one night. But the only real thing I would consider an upgrade is the Beta is super cardioid, so it's a tad better rejecting leakage and feedback in live situations. Other great mic that are close to silver bullet vocal mics, but they don't work for everybody, and neither does any one particular piece of gear.
 
 I love the CA2A, it's so good and authentic I actually retired my Teletronix LA2A. It's actually quite superior to the original for two main reasons. It's ultimately reliable because it never needs maintenance, and I can run multiple instances, which I could never afford to do.
 I actually had 2 of them for a time with the idea of strapping both together across the output buss for stereo, but it was a real pain to get consistent results every time. I felt it was kinda like getting caught in the middle of conversation of a bickering married couple, trying getting 2 vintage analog LA2A's to play nice with each other. 
 Waves also released an excellent LA2A clone often on sale for $29 (us) which is almost as good as Cakewalk CA2A. They work and sound identical, but being the CA2A can also be used as a ProChannel module is a real game changer.
 And the TKO goes to Cakewalk!
 
 And to close, I once was driven crazy trying to get the perfect acoustic guitar sound for a very anal perfectionist client on a particular piece.
  After about a week of frustration, I had almost exhausted every possibility I could think of, a student of mine stopped by with a matched pair of Behringer C2 small condenser pencils he just bought for $60 to ask me my opinion of them. Just for the heck out it, I swapped out my extremely lovely Rode NT-5's...….
 And guess what happened? 
 
I don't know what your looking for John, but I really like what you did and how it sounded.
 And yes of course, as an engineer I would surely mix and adjust it differently the way I (personally) think it should sound, and believe me, the differences would be very subtle, but you might personally think I screwed it up.
 
Sometimes the only changes needed are in our attitudes and perspectives.
And while I'm a firm believer of being highly critical of myself as I feel you are being here, I fully understand how easy it is to fall into a pattern of never being satisfied, and that can lead to a bad place to be.
2018/05/24 14:40:44
Johnbee58
Skyline-Obviously I didn't make myself clear when I said I didn't want a review or critique! This is why I don't post for reviews anymore and I was afraid this was going to happen. It just so happens I like complex melodies.  I'm a jazz lover and they can be complex. Sing a simple song and have a simple melody.  Boring!  I don't see what this has to do with the sonic fidelity of a vocal track. 
 
To all of the others-Thanks for your tips.  Fact is I DO own a Peavey Dynamic.  It's a PVM 38 which I've heard is a kind of emulation of a Shure SM 58.  I used it for more than 20 years with much satisfaction.  Then I started listening to the advise of those who said
that the condenser mic was the best way to go and bought the cheap Apex that I have.  It has 2 button settings and neither did the trick.  I sprung big time for the Avantone.  The sales guy at Sweetwater told me that there is an alternate tube to put in it and that "might" make it sound different.  I personally kind of doubt it.
 

2018/05/24 15:34:52
Johnbee58
garybrun
Many stores will let you borrow to try out...  I always recommend this before purchasing a microphone.


I find this surprising given the sanitary factor.  I've heard of at least one online music retailer who has a no refund policy on microphones due to the possible spread of infection.

2018/05/24 16:44:02
Cactus Music
The only thing I might suggest regarding the capture is that it sounds a bit thin, so if you are singing more than about 10" from the mic, you may try moving closer and see if you get some more body. It sounded to me like getting closer to the mic might help. If you get plosives (pops), try singing across it at more of an angle, and of course use a pp screen.
 
This is exactly what I was hearing. There's not much timbre in your voice to begin with and yes it might be because your singing a very high part, also I can hear the room around you so I assume you were far away from the mike.  
My first thoughts are see if you can get closer to warm your voice up a bit. Or try a dynamic mike and swallow it. I tried all sorts of mikes over the last 30 years and settled on a Shure Beta 58.  I also use a Joe Meek pre amp with a tiny bit of compression. Like you I have a 6i6 and they are not very good. The pre amps are next to useless for my voice so I use the back 3/4 and the Joe Meek. 
Your weak link is the 6i6 pre amps. 
 
2018/05/24 17:48:37
Johnbee58
Cactus Music
 Your weak link is the 6i6 pre amps. 
 




The fact that you can hear my room also doesn't say much about the Auralex treatment.  They even sent me a detailed graphic on where to put them based on pics I sent them.  That was a big waste of money.  I should've stuck with my wall posters.
 
I have a Line 6 Pod Studio UX2 that I could still set up and use.  Would you suggest that?
Regarding my voice not having timbre-It used to when I was in my 30s, but now at 62 and asthmatic, that is falling apart.  I could argue that this is another "critique" but I cannot deny that my voice is crappy and is also a part of the "weak link" in my music, but there is nothing I can do about that.  The key the song is in also matters a lot to me.  I could easily bring the instrumentation down a half or whole step (it's MIDI so that's very easy) but this song is part of a "suite" in which the other song is also in A minor so linking them wouldn't sound right if I had one in  A minor and the next one in A flat.  Also I enjoy music in certain keys and transposing, at least to me, would take something away from it.  I realize this is not a very professional way to look at it, but I'm not a professional so I don't care.  I do this for fun.  If I had to take into consideration all the factors that would have to be considered to have my music "professional" it would become a task and not very enjoyable.  I can pretend I can sing good again.  Can't I?
2018/05/24 18:07:43
Cactus Music
"I have a Line 6 Pod Studio UX2 that I could still set up and use.  Would you suggest that?" 
 
I would certainly try everything you have on hand until you find the right combination of gear. 
If you have a real music store nearby, they should let you try stuff out. I took back more gear than I kept while on my quest for vocal signal path.  
 
You and I are sort of in the same boat as I too do not like the sound of my recorded voice these days, Ya, I'm 65 and my old recordings from 20 years ago sound much better to me. I think the old analog stuff just added that elusive warmth everyone talks about. 
 
Pre Amps do make a difference and I will be saving up for something better for myself. Lots of good information has been shared in the Hardware forum here on pre amps. I bought the Joe Meek as it was in my price range but I know I could do much better. For now it's a big step up from the Focusrite pre's.  And myself I just cannot use a LDC mike at all. I snort and make too many noises.  
 
I don't think you wasted money on the room treatment. I hear the room, but it's a good sound.  As said you have an excellent recording , clean and clear and the fact that I can hear the space your in is not a negative part of this. 
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