• SONAR
  • Recording audio without latency
2015/10/29 23:56:10
zblip2@gmail.com
Hi I have been using Sonar for a while. there is a basic concept that I have not yet understood:
 
When I record vocals, I want to hear my voice without the anoying delay caused by the computer. Further more, I want to hear reverb on my voice as I record.
For the moment, the only way that I have found is to record on a track with the monitoring volume set to zero and have a "pre-fader send" feeding the reverb bus. My dry voice is heard through the audio interface foldback and added to the reverb... After I have recorded a track, if I want to hear it back to do a punch-in, I have to drag my recorded performance onto another track which has the fader to nominal level to hear it in context with reverb, and manually cut it at the desired place... If I do multiple vocal takes I have to drag each them out on different tracks manually and mute them ....I am sure that I am not doing this the right way because it is a slow and clumzy way to work... What am I missing? I work with pro Tools at the studio and this is NEVER an issue, there is no delay in the monitoring and everything is simple... Why isn't there a direct monitoring bus in Sonar that lets you hear the sound directly from the interface when a track is armed and switches automatically to playback when the track is playing? I can't believe there isn't something like this in Sonar... I know there is feature in Cubase and Pro-Tools... When I look at Sonar videos making use of "Record Lanes" and comping within an single track I am frustrated because I can not achieve this in real life...  I refuse to record audio with a 12ms delay in my headphones, I think that in 2015 we have the right to expect not to have to deal with this.. It so happens that when one records vocals, it is often late into the production process, and therefore the session is already heavy with synths and processing, it is then difficult to work at 2ms delay unless you have a $10 000 16 core Xeon.
I expect some of you to suggest to me to print a mix of the backing trak and use it to record the vocals in a lighter session that will enable me to dial down the ASIO buffer, and after that import the vocals back into the main session for mixdown...I think it is a waist of time and besides the point.... 
I saw a Steinberg demo on Youtube that featured an audio inderface that has dsp and enables the use of reverb during recording and there was no fuss about asio delay and muting tracks and moving tracks around like I have to do in Sonar. Everything was integrated and simple. I love my Sonar but I hate recording audio with it...
 
I wish there was a Cackewalk video that explained how one should record audio the most efficient way...How do you guys deal with recording audio?
 
Thank you for your suggestions
2015/10/30 01:12:26
kevinwal
Man, that sounds like a lot of work you shouldn't have to do. I'm not a pro and I don't do 'sessions' but I do record and monitor vocals all the time, just like in the videos, and often with beaucoup synths and tracks and plugins galore. My interface, a MOTU 8pre, has a utility for setting up monitoring but mostly I monitor the full mix on the Master bus and I'm not aware of any pro tricks for monitoring because I haven't needed them. Like you I like reverb on my vocal when I record. If I'm doing lots of takes I set a loop section on the time line, open up the take lanes on the vocal track and record as many as I find necessary.
 
As you've indicated, you do have to have ASIO configured properly but in my experience you don't need 2ms latency to get a good experience. Sound travels about a foot a millisecond, so 10ms is equivalent to standing 10 feet away from a speaker. If you have lots of virtual instrument tracks, it helps to freeze them to reduce the load, but I rarely have to do that. There's no getting around needing to have the hardware for the job, because if you're demanding 2015 performance from a 2005 machine, you may be disappointed. In that vein it would help to post your hardware, OS and software specs to help us understand the kit you're running.
2015/10/30 01:49:00
Fabio Rubato
I used to get that kind of latency when I had a gammy setup - not that I'm suggesting yours is. Currently though, my mic goes into a ADAT channel mixer/compressor and then into my RME UFX. RME has a mixing software console, which has on-board FX - (basic reverb and echo), but it adds a nice atmosphere when singing...so that's what I listen to in my phones and there's no latency at all. I record this signal directly into Sonar, which can be dry, or I can record the FX from the software if I wanted, but I find I have more control if I just record dry and listen and sing to it wet.
2015/10/30 02:07:20
mgh
Well firstly we all get a little suspicious of a first post which basically says'DAW X can do this why can't Sonar? '...
Assuming you're not a troll there are a number of different things in your post.
Firstly latency has nothing to do with Sonar but is down to your audio interface. If you're heavy on the vsti then you can freeze them before recording vox
Secondly you need to know about input monitoring and sound on sound recording mode.
Thirdly if you want to do in the box reverb you have to either have a send or put a reverb on the track via the prochannel or the fx bin. Some interfaces have dsp and let you add verb outside of Sonar but this won't be printed.
Everyone on here records vocals within sonar so clearly it can be done without all the issues you describe!
2015/10/30 03:07:24
Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
zblip2@gmail.com
 I refuse to record audio with a 12ms delay in my headphones, I think that in 2015 we have the right to expect not to have to deal with this.. It so happens that when one records vocals, it is often late into the production process, and therefore the session is already heavy with synths and processing, ...




(A) Easiest and best solution: use an interface with zero latency direct mix capabilities - there are tons around at really affordable prices (I use e.g. Octa-Capture to create several Headphone mixes plus reverb on vox monitoring)
(B) Bounce/freeze your synth tracks and then reduce your ASIO buffer settings to lowest possible number. With synth recording (since Ipswich) all synths can be bonced with a single playback of the song ...
 
2015/10/30 05:10:51
dlesaux
mgh
Well firstly we all get a little suspicious of a first post which basically says'DAW X can do this why can't Sonar? '...
Assuming you're not a troll there are a number of different things in your post.

 
Hmmm. A single post count and highly critical of Sonar.. I wonder..?
2015/10/30 05:22:08
Bristol_Jonesey
 I refuse to record audio with a 12ms delay in my headphones, I think that in 2015 we have the right to expect not to have to deal with this

 
I hope you don't play guitar.
 
A delay of 12ms is exactly the same as standing 4 metres away from your amp
2015/10/30 07:19:58
Hatstand
I used to find it difficult recording without noticeable latency but a change of outboard audio hardware resolved this without anything changing in Sonar, so as others have suggested this is more likely to be an issue with the audio interface settings.
 
Funnily enough on my current set up I get very little latency with Sonar and Ableton but with PT12 I get worse performance resulting in me having to adjust my ASIO settings every time I switch. Luckily the majority of my work is within Sonar so I can live with it without griping...errr I just did.
:)
2015/10/30 09:02:53
mudgel
The very things you say Cubase and Pro Tools were capable of in a video you saw was down to the hardware not the software.

For zero latency monitoring you have to listen to (monitor) directly from your audio interface. If you have the hardware that can do this Sonar is equally capable of zero latency monitoring.
2015/10/30 11:50:39
azslow3
N00b solution, with 2007 computers and huge latency settings (but with "dry voice is heard through the audio interface foldback").
 
1. 2 audio tracks with Mic input, "Voc.Rec." and "Voc.Live" and 2 buses, "Master" and "Reverb".
2. For "Voc.Rec." set Output to "Master" and create a Send to "Reverb". Set "Input echo" to "Off" (important!)
3. For "Voc.Live." set Output to "Reverb" and "Input echo" to "On"
4. The "Reverb" should be reverb only (no dry part).
 
You turn record on "Voc.Rec." only, not (!) on  "Voc.Live".
 
As the result, everything you sing goes 3 different routes:
1) recorded to "Voc.Rec." but the live signal is NOT goes throw (not to Send, not to Output)
2) goes throw "Voc.Live" to reverb and then to headphones
3) goes internally in hardware dry to headphones
 
What is already recorded on "Voc.Rec" goes to "Master" AND "Reverb" and then to headphones. With some level adjustment and proper take lanes mode, that works fine for me.
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