• SONAR
  • Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? (p.2)
2015/10/07 08:27:51
BobF
mettelus
I must admit I have never used punch in/out on a DAW, and any desire for such disappeared completely with speed comping.

I guess I always think of punch in/out as a destructive edit on tape where prior material gets obliterated. In a DAW there is no such thing, so I always loop an area to include the pre/post roll and lop the ends off later.

Am I missing something with punch in/out here?



I'm with you on this one.
2015/10/07 08:50:28
Doktor Avalanche
mettelus
I must admit I have never used punch in/out on a DAW, and any desire for such disappeared completely with speed comping.

I guess I always think of punch in/out as a destructive edit on tape where prior material gets obliterated. In a DAW there is no such thing, so I always loop an area to include the pre/post roll and lop the ends off later.

Am I missing something with punch in/out here?



Well punch in/out is much faster workflow if you are accurate at it (as you avoid having to spend time topping/tailing it). Horses for courses then.
2015/10/07 09:00:37
fireberd
I use punch in to fix things.  But I keep a copy of the original project, so if needed I can revert back to the original.
I just fixed the steel guitar ending on a session yesterday.  Punched in using a footswitch connected to my Frontier Tranzport and played the new ending.  Saved the project as the song name fixed, thus I had the original and fixed projects.
 
I can see the plus of the pre-roll.  I had PT9 for a while but never really got into it and finally dumped it.
2015/10/07 12:35:25
Anderton
irvin
Not to be argumentative or anything (and I have no idea what ProTools video you watched), but compare what Craig suggested to this:
 
1. Place playhead anywhere you want.
2. Hit "Record".

 
Since you need to specify how much pre-roll you want, that would be a separate operation - much like setting the punch points in SONAR. Either way, you have to specify where/how you want something to happen prior to recording.
 
The amount of time I need prior to recording changes...for vocals, it has be long enough to get to the vocal booth, put on the headphones, and start listening. For guitar, I set it so there's enough time to hit the G FORCE button for touching up guitar tuning prior to the punch. In other cases I want a long section beforehand to get into the "groove." So it's important for me to be able to specify the "pre-roll" time as needed, and just placing the now time where I want playback to begin is dead simple. I would think the time you save by not having to set punch points in Pro Tools would be offset in SONAR by not having to go to preferences to set a pre-roll time...six of one, half a dozen of the other. If you need to go into a preferences menu, the PT approach might actually be more time-consuming. (FWIW I always have rewind to now marker checked so I don't need to enable that.) 
 
I can see where the PT option would add convenience under certain conditions if the pre-roll was fixed and you never wanted to change it, but personally, I would classify it as "another option" rather than something that would improve my workflow significantly. Like Mettelus, I've sort of moved beyond standard punching anyway, other than to combine punching with looping for speed comping...best of both worlds.
2015/10/07 12:43:52
Anderton
fwrend
CA, is there a way to just enter a punch-in point alone?



No, but if the object is to be able to record at will past the punch to anywhere up to the end of the song, select all as the punch point, then move the punch-in to where you want the recording to start. I prefer that to hitting "R" because I usually want to be playing when the punch starts.
2015/10/07 12:50:33
backwoods
I only do punch ins and would really like to see this pre roll feature too! Another thing I'd like is what some other daws have - multiple punch in zones. You place multiple markers and they turn the "recording" function on/off as the playhead passes each one- you can rerecord multiple sections of a track in one take that way.
2015/10/07 12:55:29
Anderton
backwoods
Another thing I'd like is what some other daws have - multiple punch in zones. You place multiple markers and they turn the "recording" function on/off as the playhead passes each one- you can rerecord multiple sections of a track in one take that way.



Now, that would be far more useful to me than the pre-roll, because it would eliminate recording for the duration where the punches occur and then having to split/drag the "punched" clips into place. I suspect it would be difficult to implement...but with Noel, you never know 
2015/10/07 13:04:51
irvin
Anderton
Since you need to specify how much pre-roll you want, that would be a separate operation - much like setting the punch points in SONAR. Either way, you have to specify where/how you want something to happen prior to recording.

 
Nothing happens before recording. Song starts playing the exact length of the pre-roll before recording begins at the playhead's position. That's the beauty of it: no messing with setting up loop points, entering values or anything else. You can record as much or as little as you want.
 
Anderton
The amount of time I need prior to recording changes...for vocals, it has to be long enough to get to the vocal booth, put on the headphones, and start listening. For guitar, I set it so there's enough time to hit the G FORCE button for touching up guitar tuning prior to the punch. In other cases I want a long section beforehand to get into the "groove."

 
I think you're mis-understanding what "Pre-roll" does or what it's used for. You only use it when actually recording, not during the time used for preparing to record (like putting headphones, getting to the vocal booth, eating a sandwich or hitting G FORCE buttons on a guitar - none of that has anything to do with the actual process of recording...lol...).  
 
Anderton
So it's important for me to be able to specify the "pre-roll" time as needed, so I'd still have to set timing prior to recording using Pro Tools or set timing as punch point with SONAR prior to recording...six of one, half a dozen of the other. If you need to go into a preferences menu, that might actually be more time-consuming. (FWIW I always have rewind to now marker checked so I don't need to enable that.) 

 
It's a one-time thing that literally takes 2 or 3 seconds in Reaper. You don't have to change it every time you record, unless you have very specific reasons for it. It does not change the way you record a take or do punch-ins and punch-outs. 
 
Anderton
On a separate topic, as to punching and being able to record to the end, just select all as the punch point, then move the punch-in to where you want the recording to start. I prefer that to hitting "R" because usually want to be playing when the punch starts.

 
That's the beauty of "pre-roll": you do not need to "select all as the punch point, then move the punch-in to where you want the recording to start". It's much faster than that. Pre-roll also accommodates your preference (it's everybody's preference, actually) of being playing before the punch starts. That has been the way to record since the days of tape.
 
Anderton 
I can see where the PT option would add convenience under certain conditions if the pre-roll was fixed and you never wanted to change it, but personally, I would classify it as "another option" rather than something that would improve my workflow significantly. Like Mettelus, I've sort of moved beyond standard punching anyway, other than to combine punching with looping for speed comping...best of both worlds.



It's a global preference setting (1 bar, 2 bars, whatever). You can set it and leave it alone. I normally use 2 bars to give time to most musicians to play/sing along for a short while (the pre-roll length) before the punch-in takes place. It's a really, really neat and lightning-fast way to do punch-ins and outs on the fly. No need to set loop points or anything else.
 
If you're curious enough, just try the feature in Reaper - it works like a charm. There is a very good and valid reason for all major DAWs to have it (with slight differences in their implementation): it's very effective and widely used.
2015/10/07 13:11:52
irvin
Just for clarification: Pre-roll is not a "ProTools thing". It's widely implemented by virtually all major DAWs: Logic, Samplitude, ProTools, Reaper, Studio One, etc.
 
2015/10/07 13:28:27
Doktor Avalanche
Well I totally see the OP's point here, and I totally see other people points as well, as it's just another way to do something... the OP here has a point however....
 
1. Place playhead anywhere you want.
2. Hit "Record".
 
That seems pretty useful to me, and no doubt it won't be useful to others. There will be other's who don't need to use it of course, fair enough, but that does not mean the OP request is invalid, esp when other DAW's have implemented (or so it appears).

Anyway as this is a feature to improve workflow (at least for some), I doubt there's ever going to be of much interest internally, as it seems the priority is back to bolting on new features (and USP) so the spec sheet looks good in marketing, rather than improving/fixing existing meat and potatoes, day to day functionality/workflow (we appear to be back to the good 'ole Roland days).
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