Anderton

lingyai
Craig, I downloaded the files, expecting the guide would be included in the download, but it wasn't -- there are only the Sonar files and the audio files. Then I noticed that the page starts off by thanking for already having downloaded the guide. I googled "Mixing with ProChannel in SONAR X3 Producer guide from Disc Makers" but no joy. Is the guide itself still available? 

 
Click here, fill out the info, then click on "Get Your Free Guide."
 

 
Cheers Craig. Just downloaded and skimmed. I'll go through it in detail later this weekend. First impressions are great though -- looks clean, slick, and to the point.  As I only got ProChannel access when I got Platinum a little while ago I've not explored it much, basically just used the EQ and console emulation. Looks like will be a great intro. Don't get mad at me if I come back and suggest more things in the same vein! By the way, yesterday I wasn't -- nor am I now -- suggesting you do all this personally. Perhaps some of the gurus here could volunteer to draft things, leaving you or someone else at CW to edit. Bound to be less onerous than doing it all... Anyway, thanks again.
 
 
 

Doktor Avalanche

Doktor Avalanche

3) Sonar is reliable. It's people's systems that are unreliable. What is Cakewalk going to do gag these people who scream at great heights crying wolf? 

lingyai
You're a stickler for evidence, Doctor A. So where is the evidence for this?  What, you've checked everyone's systems before coming to this sweeping, unqualified conclusion? Pray do share your findings. This kind of reflexive, blame-the-pilot dismissal does nothing whatsoever to persuade people who run other software fine on their machines that they should stick with or even try Sonar. Your assertion does not make the problems they see with their own eyes simply vanish. It's like an errant member of a marching band protesting, "Everyone else was out of step but me". Gagging people crying wolf? Please. Ok, say what you wish, but I hope CW itself doesn't want to send this message out, otherwise it'll end up a very isolated product, blaming the market for its failure.  

The evidence is here in front of your nose. When Sonar has been unstable in the past we would have one thread every few hours saying it crashes with THE SAME symptoms, and similar steps to reproduce. The 64 bit precision issue was the last big one I remember. For a recent example check the number of start screen threads and posts in these forums, please note the start screen issue is NOT a stability issue.

What we do have here every so often are people posting about entirely different issues. 95% of the time we get to the bottom of it. The other 5% is generally because the OP might not be confident enough to follow diagnostic steps. At the end of the day there is generally always a resolution.. and Sonar generally is not the problem. Basically do the math...

 
Yes, the evidence, via this Google search, is indeed right under my nose:
 
"sonar platinum crash 2015 site:forum.cakewalk.com"
 
I guess you see what you want to see.  

  This sounds like one of these "I lost my self esteem because X Daw is not mentioned".  Like...who...cares?  If I need to talk about Sonar I go to http://forum.cakewalk.com/.  
 
  I don't need such things to feel confident about the DAW I use.

lingyai
But you should recognize that others might not be tempted by software which requires a 20 year intellectual investment, including reading all of the manual (now at 2,188 pages for Hopkinton)

 
Took me 20 years to learn a recording studio. I'm still learning...I don't think I'll ever stop learning, nor do I want to stop learning. 
 
ANY modern DAW is in the same order of magnitude of complexity as SONAR. Learning a program is not a digital process where you know nothing, and then 20 years later you know everything.
 
Learning is an accumulation of knowledge over time.
 
If you just want to use SONAR like a glorified ADAT and record and play back 8 tracks, you can do that in a day. If you want to know every nuance of every potential recording technique, virtual instrument, and plug-in, it will take a lot longer. If you want to learn how to apply those tools in a musical way, then you'll never stop learning. A piano has only 88 velocity-sensitive switches and three pedals, but learning how to apply them in a musical way takes a lifetime.
 

and Scott's book (X3 Power runs 400 pages)

 
It's up to you to determine the rate at which you accumulate knowledge. I've never read Scott's book. If I was just getting started and wanted to learn at a faster rate, I probably would. Or, I just might jump in, start using SONAR, and learn about new features only as needed ("Sure you be nice to save different mixes...hmm, time to learn about mix recall").
 
 

not to mention frequent monitoring of the forum to keep abreast of the latest version's bugs if they install every update. 

 
You're overthinking this. Just install the update. Odds are you won't run into a deal-breaker bug. If you do, roll back to the previous version.
 
SONAR is a virtual recording studio. Back in the day no one expected to walk into Record Plant and know how to do everything within a few weeks, or even months.

lingyai 
Yes, the evidence, via this Google search, is indeed right under my nose:
 
"sonar platinum crash 2015 site:forum.cakewalk.com"
 
I guess you see what you want to see.  

Ah... and that search filters out system specific issues does it? ;)

How about googling other DAWs with similar search term, you will obviously get similar results.

Also if you google:
'Is the end of the world tomorrow' by your logic it's proof that it is.

I don't think you really read, understood or addressed any of the points in my last post.

lingyai
 
I say without any sarcasm, I'm glad Sonar does all you need it to. But you should recognize that others might not be tempted by software which requires a 20 year intellectual investment, including reading all of the manual (now at 2,188 pages for Hopkinton) and Scott's book (X3 Power runs 400 pages), not to mention frequent monitoring of the forum to keep abreast of the latest version's bugs if they install every update. It does get to be a bit much sometimes.   

Uh... no. I've been using Sonar about 4 years now and have been able to use it semi-professionally over the past year. I also go into a lot more crazy crap than 90% of users will ever need to even touch on (nor want to).
 
This is coming from someone who had NO freaking clue when it came to recording, DAWs or even computers when I started. I used my last DAW as a glorified multi track recorder so I had a SLIGHT head start as far as basic transport and light editing but essentially when I started I started with NO knowledge.
 
AAAAND most of the past four years has more been learning about basic production stuff such as MIDI, mixing, third party software, wrangling with the technical aspects of computers, etc.
 
Sonar ain't easy to learn or use, that's for sure but let's not get carried away. It's not a 20 year education. It's an ongoing education maybe as the new features come out and as the user's needs change but if you can't figure out how to put together a tune after a year or so I gotta think there is something else going on.
 
Cripes. I had two simple songs put together and posted in the Songs forum within about a month of installing Sonar for the first time. They weren't anything special and it was brain busting but I did it.
 
Sonar may be slightly more complex than other platforms but if it takes you twenty years to learn Sonar it'll likely take you as long to learn any other DAW.
 
And the Reference Guide is exactly that... a REFERENCE. You learn to get around and do the basics, learn the terminology, etc (via the tutorials at the start and the infor here on the site) then REFER to the 2000+ page Guide to dig in deeper when needed.
 
I did attempt to read all the way through the RG at first and got to about page 750. Now I'm not a dumblef*ck about it. I do what I need to and if I get lost I research the problem (and ask the forum).
 
You don't NEED to know every godamned little corner of the program to be productive.
 
Hyperbole is useless.

lingyai
Yes, the evidence, via this Google search, is indeed right under my nose:
 
"sonar platinum crash 2015 site:forum.cakewalk.com"
 
I guess you see what you want to see.  

Yes, that is true. If all you want to see is stories about SONAR crashing, then searching on "sonar platinum crash 2015 site:forum.cakewalk.com" is the most efficient way to find those stories.
 
On the other hand, if you prefer to see that Cubase is a piece of crap software that doesn't work, search on this:
steinberg cubase crash
 
If you prefer to see that Pro Tools is a piece of crap software that doesn't work, search on this:
avid pro tools crash
 
If you prefer to see that Ableton Live ls is a piece of crap software that doesn't work, search on this:
ableton live crash
 
If you don't want to just limit yourself to DAWs and want to see that Kontakt is a piece of crap software that doesn't work, search on this:
native instruments kontakt crash
 
Etc. You'll have plenty of crash stories that will keep you entertained for hours . It indeed depends on what you want to see.
 
I just don't understand how anyone running any program with millions of lines of code on machines that were never designed with real-time streaming of audio and video data in mind expects to have a flawless experience without expending some effort. In my case, the effort involved buying a computer that was optimized for real-time streaming of audio and video data, and then maintaining it properly. Problem solved. 

Buy a groove3 subscription if you have issues learning Sonar. It is NOT unnecessarily complicated. I do agree there are areas of the UI that need simplifying but that's the same as any DAW. Sonar is a full recording facility for a reason , if you expecting to behave like a basic four track recorder you probably need to buy one of those instead. Sound engineering is a professional skill, same with any fullly fledged DAW, don't expect be an expert overnight, certainly do not expect plug and play... I tell you though it is much simpler than being in front of a real recording studio with a proper analogue desk.

I'll backup Dr. Avalanche, SONAR has been solidly working with almost no crashes since it was ProAudio9.  If you've got a good clean install of windows SONAR is rock solid...(and I voted for SONAR Dr. Avalanche in that survey you posted! Giving of positive vibes about SONAR to other musicians is our best offense, defense and marketing department...I BOOST SONAR to my musical friends all the time, whenever I can, It's an awesome tool!
 
Gearslutz? (please nice name!)
 
- Shawn (The SONAR WHORE!) Lee Farrell
 

Anderton

lingyai
But you should recognize that others might not be tempted by software which requires a 20 year intellectual investment, including reading all of the manual (now at 2,188 pages for Hopkinton)

 
Took me 20 years to learn a recording studio. I'm still learning...I don't think I'll ever stop learning, nor do I want to stop learning. 
 
ANY modern DAW is in the same order of magnitude of complexity as SONAR. Learning a program is not a digital process where you know nothing, and then 20 years later you know everything.
 
Learning is an accumulation of knowledge over time.
 
If you just want to use SONAR like a glorified ADAT and record and play back 8 tracks, you can do that in a day. If you want to know every nuance of every potential recording technique, virtual instrument, and plug-in, it will take a lot longer. If you want to learn how to apply those tools in a musical way, then you'll never stop learning. A piano has only 88 velocity-sensitive switches and three pedals, but learning how to apply them in a musical way takes a lifetime.
 

and Scott's book (X3 Power runs 400 pages)

 
It's up to you to determine the rate at which you accumulate knowledge. I've never read Scott's book. If I was just getting started and wanted to learn at a faster rate, I probably would. Or, I just might jump in, start using SONAR, and learn about new features only as needed ("Sure you be nice to save different mixes...hmm, time to learn about mix recall").
 
 

not to mention frequent monitoring of the forum to keep abreast of the latest version's bugs if they install every update. 

 
You're overthinking this. Just install the update. Odds are you won't run into a deal-breaker bug. If you do, roll back to the previous version.
 
SONAR is a virtual recording studio. Back in the day no one expected to walk into Record Plant and know how to do everything within a few weeks, or even months.

Just a few points, then I'll give the exchange a breather.
 
I'm not expecting to master Sonar overnight or even a few months, as the sheer number of features would preclude that. Nor am I even talking about "mastering" it -- rather I was responding to the post in which failing to read the full manual + Scott's book seemed to be deemed the culprit for the very many problems you can read about here each month.
 
I do in fact use these materials along the lines you suggest, i.e., when I've got a problem or get curious about something. Scott's excellent book is usually my first port of call, followed by the manual, followed by, if neccessary, this forum.
 
As for "overthinking" re the updates -- you've said that to me before, and I again I'll respectfully disagree. I've never been a bleeding-edge early adopter, as such folks often end up as unwitting / unwilling beta-testers. This is an IT fact of life -- just look at Windows 10 and El Capitan, to cite the two examples closest to the top of my head. And now especially, I have a shedload of projects I am working through right now, most of which involve relatively (technically speaking) straightforward tasks of audio comping and mixing. I've encountered some quirks, none of which are show-stoppers as I've either developed workarounds or just been able to tolerate them. Nothing I'm using my setup for is broke so I'm not about to tempt fate and "fix" anything; and none of the new features in the update since I subscribed are important to me, so I'll stay put for now, thanks.
 
Because -- well, you can read as well I can -- there are indeed problems aplenty reported, many by non-newbies, with Ipswich, including things like Sonar not starting, which would piss me off plenty. Please let's not minimise, dismiss or deny them. Even if the odds are slim that they would affect me (how would you know that, by the way?), I've nothing to gain at the moment by rocking the boat.  Yes, perhaps I could seek help here with any problems, and in the worse case, roll back. But these things take *time* which I'd rather devote to the tasks at hand. But I could easily see losing a morning, or a day, or two, getting to the bottom of whatever the jack-in-the-box has in store or me. No thanks -- not me, not now.
 
Truth be told, I'm not interested in constantly evolving software. Updates are optional. It would take a really killer feature, like a 21st century score editor, to get me to move from where I am. Call me a scaredy-cat or a non-True Believer, fine.  This is after all what I do for fun. My hobby is, as far as possible, music made with the help software, rather than music software.