Doktor Avalanche
Beep I never saw any offence in your comments, strong views is not the same as name calling, just imho.
 
I understand the motive John, but it doesn't work the way you think it does. Being a host if there's a complaint you should be extremely specific IMHO if you address all of us, otherwise you risk offending everybody, looking authoritarian,  and changing the whole course of discussion. It's was probably best to send a PM in this instance if there really was some terrible issue. Nevermind no harm done hopefully.
 
We shall move on.

Right, thank you. Now if we may move on please. 

Meh, all this talk of learning ain't going to grow you expression maps or better video handling or better notation (which helps in conjunction with expression maps).
 
If there's something you need or want to do, and the product supports it, then a few hours playing around and reading the manual and you're usually in business--worst case.
 
If the product doesn't support that function, you are just SOL, and no amount of "learnin'" is going to help.
 
Aside from these two rather tiresome issuse and the inability to record CC data separately in the PRV (can only do it in automation lanes, and then you can't convert those back to PRV for later editing AFAIK) are my biggest workflow issues.
 
Sure, there were buggy releases where PRV CC data just made the whole thing grind to a halt, the occasional crash, but all DAWs have bugs and crashes, and Cakewalk has been pretty good about fixing those things fairly quickly.
 
Cakewalk just has no interest in some things that many people find rather helpful in terms of scoring, and they are in denial (as is this community) about that, IMO.
 
 

Doktor Avalanche

Beepster
linDo you expect Sonar to dumb it down and lose their professional/more adventurous customers to suit your hobbiest workflow?

Well funnily enough...
https://www.cakewalk.com/Products/Music-Creator

@DA, 
 
A couple of years ago when I made the move from SONAR 6 PE to X3 e PE , i felt the learning curve was just so steep for me .
I honestly thought I might have to just pack it in ….
 
At the time Cakewalk had MC 6 going at a ridiculous price  ( $20 ) ?  I picked MC 6 up and wound up using it to learn my way around the new to me X style GUI a little bit …
A fella named Jim over at the MC sub section of the forum had recommended that I buy the Groove 3 vid on MC .. .
After taking Jim's advice , I can openly admit here on the forum that he didn't throw me a fish , he threw me a fishing pole 
 
One thing I do appreciate around here is when a few of the "more knowledgable posters"  chime in and remind us that SONAR is every bit as fully featured as a full fledged recording studio . Also that it is unrealistic to think that 
a person can just turn on their computer , open up SONAR and expect to create a musical masterpiece  ….
 
It may be possible that some of us here may have high expectations and we want to get our work done , but i can say every brick wall I ever hit was user error or a lack of understanding on how things work in SONAR. 
 
The gist of my whole thing when it comes to music is I'm a player first and everything else regarding music and music production is not second nature to me . Just like I had to spend time in the woodshed to learn my Axe , same approach goes for learning SONAR …
 
Would like to take this opportunity to tell a little story , the story is about my younger brother Kevin …
My brother K worked his way up the ladder old school , he first interned at a well know NYC recording studio and then he landed a gig w a company that I will not mention (the current company bears no resemblance to the company he worked for back then ) 
….all this took place a long time ago and started back in the late 70 's to early 80's
By 1988 he had travelled to an insane amount of locations and counties all over the world as an on location sound man and or boom operator…when our mom passed in 88 he was on location in China and couldn't get back to the US in time ….
Somewhere's back then the company he worked for moved from NYC to Cali and my brother made the move …
He also freelanced and one of his gigs was the original Saved by The B….
I get a chuckle every time I see his name in the credits as the boom operator ….he did a lot of episodes 
The first point I'm looking to make here is anybody who wanted to become an engineer back in those days had to intern and work insane hours for little too no money …
It was considered an honor and a privilege to have a studio allow you to learn the in's and out's of music production first hand under their tutelage .  In many ways the internship was like joining the Navy seals because the attrition rate and burn out factor that was involved was pretty high .
 
OK , fast forward …  my brother invited me numerous times to leave NYC and stay with in him North Hollywood …
I took him up and hit his couch until I landed my own place …in late 97 ….
now at this point i could tell a lot of story's of some of the things I was exposed to staying w my brother and I feel my second point needs to over ride that  
One day I was watching my brother on his computer and I asked him what he was doing …
He showed me that he was working on his flying skills using a software flight simulator …
I asked him how deep this flight simulator program was and he told me it was the real deal ….
Asked him how close and he told me as close as you can get to really flying a plane ….
Anyway ,  between all the lessons he took in a small plane with a pilot and that software flight simulator  , he wound up getting his pilot license ….
For his first solo flight as a pilot he took me , his girl friend , and a friend of mine up .
We flew out of Whiteman  airport to Santa Paula airport for lunch ….
When we landed my skin tone color was so freaking white I would have made a Geisha Girls face look like an Afro American's skin tone color by comparison   
The thought did cross my mind that I was sure happy when my boots hit the ground that he did a lot of practicing with that flight simulator software …
You get my drift ? 


Kenny 

gbar
Cakewalk just has no interest in some things that many people find rather helpful in terms of scoring, and they are in denial (as is this community) about that, IMO.

 
"In denial" assumes Cakewalk has done no market research, which I can assure you is not the case. Consider that maybe Cakewalk chooses not to compete in the scoring arena (especially given that Steinberg hired three times as many developers to work solely on notation [from the Sibelius team] than the entire number of developers working on SONAR). Why should Cakewalk have "interest" in chasing after that target, given that it would make a lot more sense to devote Cakewalk's resources to enhancing those elements of SONAR that it does much better than other DAWs?
 
Despite my asking repeatedly for people to refute the sales figures I've presented regarding software sales, no one has ever presented ANY credible data to show that beefed up scoring features result in significant sales gains for programs, especially if that program would have to siphon off long-time users of other programs. 
 
I'm really getting tired of saying this, but different programs specialize in different tasks. There is no DAW that excels at scoring, music creation, sample library development, ease of use, loop creation and editing, freedom from bugs, remixing, live performance, universality, video support, plug-in handling, value, live recording, etc. etc.
 
As Beepster said, "Choose the best tools for your own workflow/needs." It really is that simple. If your sports car can't take all the neighborhood kids to school - buy a minivan. Better yet, learn how to drive both.

Sadly, despite having invested money and much time with this product and apparently hoping in vain, like many before me I probably will have to bite the bullet and move on.
 
Not looking forward to a new learning curve, but based on this response alone I think I  going to have to toss in the towel because, as you have pointed out, it just is not ever going to happen.
 
Live and learn

Look, I don't speak for Cakewalk. Maybe they have plans I don't know about. They included multi-input VST3 buses specifically to accommodate the VSL orchestral libraries. But I found this quote from a thread in the Image-Line forum (the therad title was "Is there a reason why no other DAW has expression maps?") interesting:
 
"Problem with Fl studio, sonar, pro tools, ableton, logic is that the way keyswitches are executed is very unproductive. They are executed by adding notes to the corresponding keys in the piano roll. Depending on how many keyswitches you need it can become very difficult to find and identify each one... not to mention the disaster if the user decides to export his work as midi or as a pdf score." 
 
I don't know much about expression maps, so the following could be wrong and I welcome corrections. But based on what I've seen, although there are hacks for other DAWs that try to emulate expression maps, in any forum posts I've seen the Cubase users pooh-pooh them as nowhere near as good as what Cubase has. Other posts from people who've switched from Cubase to another DAW often say that they miss the expression maps, but they found other features (usually workflow) in the software they switched to compelling enough to make the switch.
 
From everything I've read Expression Maps are Steinberg technology, so it's not surprising they optimized their MIDI engine to accommodate that technology. But think about it for a second...if Pro Tools and Digital Performer, which have traditionally been the top DAWs among people who do scoring, haven't implemented the ability to use expression maps (especially the ability to import ones designed for Cubase), I think it's unreasonable to expect SONAR, whose main thrust is not scoring, to leapfrog ahead of other companies that really push their scoring capabilities. 
 
IOW, it sounds like adding expression maps is a fairly daunting task or Avid and MOTU would have done it by now. If SONAR were to devote the resources necessary to accomplish this kind of daunting task, 1) how many of the existing user base would think this was a worthwhile expenditure of resources, and 2) how many Cubase, Pro Tools, and DP users would switch to help justify the expenditure of resources? My personal opinion is that in either case, the percentage would be 1) low and 2) lower.
 
Personally, I use keyboards with polyphonic aftertouch to create expressiveness for individual notes.
 
Given that for decades three programs have been the main choices for people who do scoring, I don't know why someone whose primary interest is scoring wouldn't choose one of those programs. 
 

kennywtelejazz
You get my drift ? 

Yup :)

OMG.  What is this thread even about?

konradh
OMG.  What is this thread even about?

The proper internal temperature for cooked salmon. The general consensus was that 130 degrees is best because the salmon won't dry out; but others believed 140 degrees is essential to cook the salmon through completely. There was also some debate about the best white wine to use for cooking with the salmon. Most agreed a good meursault would be fabulous except that it's way too expensive to use as cooking wine. So we're kind of split between sauvignon blanc and chardonnay, although a few people said it's possible to pick up a good albarino for under $10.
 
Fortunately, the big argument that started between Doktor Avalanche and Beepster about whether or not to rub the salmon first with olive oil was settled amicably offline. Eventually Beepster conceded that it would help hold in moisture, even though he wasn't wild about the subtle alteration to the taste. 

I like Cheese..
...Hey, is this thing on ?
 
 
moving on, nothing to see here.\\
 
Chuck - over & out