Hey guys,
 
I have been using the Voxengo PHA-979 plugin for quite a while now (love that thing!). I just found yesterday that ANY track i have an existing PHA-979 plugin on now has a terrible latency (if i had to guess, at least 50ms) that as you can imagine is ruining the sound. I have tried messing with the hardware buffer size and latency settings on my Scarlett 18i20, but it seems to only be that plugin in sonar that creates the problem. I have had no choice but to completely delete that plugin from my projects, which is painful, but has fixed the issue so far. 
 
This brings me (finally) to my question. Is there any way to fix this type of plugin-specific latency problem? I have had the same type of issue with different plugins in the past as well that i no longer use. 
 
If there is no fix to this type of issue and it's simply a compatibility problem, does anyone have a recommendation for a great stereo widening/phase control plugin that works PERFECT in Sonar? I particularly LOVE the LR delay section of the plugin.
 
Thanks in advance!
 
Micah Jude
 
Specs:
custom built computer with 250gb SSD (os), 500gb HDD (audio drive), 3rd gen i5 processor, 8gb ram. I'm running Sonar X3 Studio 64bit. 

What changed on your system?
 
If the delay puts it OOS with other tracks, then it sounds like a bug in the plugin not reporting latency values properly to Sonar.
 
Does the issue go away with different bit rate/depth settings? If so, that may help Voxengo figure out what the problem is...
 
Regards,
Dan
 

Some plug-ins, particularly those with look-ahead like multiband maximizers and transient shapers, cause considerable latency. There is no way around this because it's a characteristic of the plug-in itself. I'm not familiar with the PHA-979 so can't guarantee that's the issue, but it does seem highly likely.
 
The usual recommendation is to use these types of plug-ins only when mixing, as latency is not as much of an issue under those conditions. If you want to have widening while tracking, try the Blue Tubes Stereo Imager.

dcumpian
What changed on your system?
 
If the delay puts it OOS with other tracks, then it sounds like a bug in the plugin not reporting latency values properly to Sonar.
 
Does the issue go away with different bit rate/depth settings? If so, that may help Voxengo figure out what the problem is...
 
Regards,
Dan
 

Thanks for the reply! I'm not sure what changed in the system, nothing obvious. To make sure I understand fully, are you recommending I change the Bit Depth and such in an existing project by going to Utilities > Change Audio Format option? or are you saying to adjust my interface's ASIO driver options?

 
 

micah_jude

dcumpian
What changed on your system?
 
If the delay puts it OOS with other tracks, then it sounds like a bug in the plugin not reporting latency values properly to Sonar.
 
Does the issue go away with different bit rate/depth settings? If so, that may help Voxengo figure out what the problem is...
 
Regards,
Dan
 

Thanks for the reply! I'm not sure what changed in the system, nothing obvious. To make sure I understand fully, are you recommending I change the Bit Depth and such in an existing project by going to Utilities > Change Audio Format option? or are you saying to adjust my interface's ASIO driver options?

I'm saying that you should start new projects at different bit depths and see if the OOS issues goes away at different settings. You should only need a few tracks to test this. If you can't reproduce the problem in new, simple project, then it may be a problem in your existing project.
 
What Craig is talking about is overall latency, which is normal. From my reading of your OP, that isn't what you are talking about, is it?
 
Regards,
Dan
 
 

dcumpian
 

micah_jude

dcumpian
What changed on your system?
 
If the delay puts it OOS with other tracks, then it sounds like a bug in the plugin not reporting latency values properly to Sonar.
 
Does the issue go away with different bit rate/depth settings? If so, that may help Voxengo figure out what the problem is...
 
Regards,
Dan
 

Thanks for the reply! I'm not sure what changed in the system, nothing obvious. To make sure I understand fully, are you recommending I change the Bit Depth and such in an existing project by going to Utilities > Change Audio Format option? or are you saying to adjust my interface's ASIO driver options?

I'm saying that you should start new projects at different bit depths and see if the OOS issues goes away at different settings. You should only need a few tracks to test this. If you can't reproduce the problem in new, simple project, then it may be a problem in your existing project.
 
What Craig is talking about is overall latency, which is normal. From my reading of your OP, that isn't what you are talking about, is it?
 
Regards,
Dan
 
 

Understood. I will try that this evening then and see what happens. The odd thing is that the plugin appears to work just fine when putting it in and messing with it throughout the project. It seems only after i close out of Sonar, and then open up the same project that the latency is introduced. It's not just overall latency, no. It's enough to make some drum tracks start on the off beat :S you can imagine the chaos. Thanks for the help! 
I'll let you know what I find with your suggestions :)

Enable/disable the PDC button and see what happens. Some plug-ins actually have dynamic latency that varies over time. PDC can sort of "reset" it so it lines up with the other tracks. 

Anderton
Enable/disable the PDC button and see what happens. Some plug-ins actually have dynamic latency that varies over time. PDC can sort of "reset" it so it lines up with the other tracks. 

That's a good suggestion as it will allow Sonar to realign the tracks, but it does sound like that plugin is wonky.
 
Regards,
Dan

Is there any way to fix this type of plugin-specific latency problem?

In a word, No.
 
There can be a number of reasons why a given plugin must necessarily introduce latency, but nearly all of them are due to its fundamental design. Stereo-width enhancers are one class of effect that usually does add latency, and it'll usually be a fixed amount that doesn't change when you change settings.
 
Not all width enhancers have to add significant latency, though. Some rely on complementary EQ rather than delays or phase shifts to create the widening effect. I do not know of any that have zero latency, though, although that's just my ignorance. I rarely use wideners at all, and on those rare occasions when I do it's the last step in the mix process when latency doesn't matter.

bitflipper

Is there any way to fix this type of plugin-specific latency problem?

In a word, No.
 
There can be a number of reasons why a given plugin must necessarily introduce latency, but nearly all of them are due to its fundamental design. Stereo-width enhancers are one class of effect that usually does add latency, and it'll usually be a fixed amount that doesn't change when you change settings.
 
Not all width enhancers have to add significant latency, though. Some rely on complementary EQ rather than delays or phase shifts to create the widening effect. I do not know of any that have zero latency, though, although that's just my ignorance. I rarely use wideners at all, and on those rare occasions when I do it's the last step in the mix process when latency doesn't matter.

That's interesting. Maybe i'm thinking about this all wrong then. What do you usually do to a track if you want to widen it?  For example, in one of my songs "piece of me" I have some backing vocals that sit just wide of the main vox and it sounds heavenly imo. You can hear that part here: https://soundcloud.com/micahjude/piece-of-me#t=1:06 
 
This was done with the PHA-979 plugin so i could delay the right channel a few ms and then boost the "side mix" a bit. Is there another way of accomplishing this without the PHA-979 and without having to manually do it (cloning the track, hard panning, moving one over a few ms, adding slight phase adjustment...)?
 
Look forward to your thoughts!