This seems to be worse than I thought.
 
I'm sitting here trying to select different envelopes in different tracks then trying to edit them in various ways. It is not working at all aside from simple level adjustments.
 
I am going to read more about this (and have been) but damn... this is bad. I think I'm going to be stuck copying and pasting every time. Ugh.
 
Going headfirst into a full on crash course/refresher course on automation but if this doesn't even work in the semi annoying way I thought it would I gotta say... this needs some work.
 
Sorry, guys. I try to be positive but this one's a little whack. Unfortunately I gotta work with it so now it's all about workarounds. I'll update once I figure out WTF is going on.
 
Cheers.

Beepster
 
PS: Hopefully I'm not coming across as a d*ck about this. I'm sure I'm just missing something but I am indeed quite surprised this isn't a feature that was implemented years ago. I can't imagine the thousands of user hours wasted mucking about manually selecting things... especially before Lanes were introduced. Yikes!

personally I'm using MIDI note based envelope triggering with MUX Modular (so one envelope many trigger point)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnWzf4rwjZw
but I'm in EDM , creating and modifying zillions of envelopes, would be sooo ... :)

some envelope triggering would be nice in Sonar too but MUX has a brilliant one so I would use that one anyway

xbitz

Beepster
 
PS: Hopefully I'm not coming across as a d*ck about this. I'm sure I'm just missing something but I am indeed quite surprised this isn't a feature that was implemented years ago. I can't imagine the thousands of user hours wasted mucking about manually selecting things... especially before Lanes were introduced. Yikes!

personally I'm using MIDI note based envelope triggering with MUX Modular (so one envelope many trigger point)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnWzf4rwjZw
but I'm in EDM , creating and modifying zillions of envelopes, would be sooo ... :)

some envelope triggering would be nice in Sonar too but MUX has a brilliant one so I would use that one anyway

AFAICT so far the ONLY way I can get the behavior I am looking for is if I do it all via external MIDI controller with playback running.
 
Unfortunately that isn't what I'm looking for (I really don't like futzing with parameters in real time because frankly I'm not that good).
 
So the situation I'm looking at is essentially I either do this type of thing in realtime with a controller or I spend unreasonable amounts of time copying and pasting envelopes, double checking them, rinse, repeat (times a million).
 
It's forcing live automation writing on me. Of course that is a good skill to have but I'm a bumblebutt n00b who likes taking a moment to think about stuff (instead of doing things on the fly). I also do not like the idea of uneeded nodes being added in while I adjust the controller then having to remove them later.
 
It's just not a good setup.
 
However I appreciate your input because what you are referring to is one of the workarounds I was cobbling together in my peabrain. I wasn't sure exactly if it was viable but if you do this regularly (as I'm sure others do) then I may have to go that route.
 
Maybe I could set things up so I hit a button or constrain the automation params written (to on/off) to write it but that means, even though it's simpler and would result in less nodes, I would have to be PRECISE when I perform the function with playback running and even then I'd have to manually deal with any diagonal fade type stuff one envelope at a time.
 
Just brainstorming.
 
Thanks.

This is now a Feature Request...
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/IMPORTANT-REQUEST-BAKERS-PLEASE-READ-Link-Automation-EnvelopesLanes-m3276224.aspx
 
I am sorry for the fervent tone of it but I would like to get the attention of the Bakers (so lots of votes would help).
 
I do not know if I have discovered a defiency in Sonar or if this is an industry wide lack of functionality but either way I think it would be groundsmashing workflow improvement.
 
I am honestly dumbfounded this is not possible already and only want Sonar to be the best it can be. I will continue working on reasonably efficient workarounds in the meantime and will share what I come up with.
 
Cheers.

I see your point, and being able to copy any automation from track to track (or bus) makes a lot of sense. However, your comment that you can't "unlink" if you use bus automation is completely wrong. If you want a specific track to do something slightly different than what is in the bus automation, you only need to automate that specific change. In other words, if you want a specific guitar to pop at a specific moment, just automate that in the the track. There is no reason to have four automation lanes that are more or less identical to make this happen.
 
Regards,
Dan

I appreciate the thought, Dan but unfortunately that doesn't really work for what I'm doing. The above was a REALLY scaled down version of what I'm attempting. If you could peer into my project (sorry... no screen recording software yet) you'd see where the problems occur. Even doing a basic setup with what you suggest would still be problematic because it wouldn't be one track being automated before the bus. It would be multiple tracks so the envelopes still need to be sync'd. I also need certain effects to stay where they are to preserve my carefully thought out signal chain (although I did not anticipate this so I may have done a couple things differently... not sure what though).
 
I am thinking on it and going to do a massive study on all this to make sure I know every trick available to me. Hopefully that will garner a reasonably efficient workflow. I will update at that time to maybe help others trying to figure this type of thing out.
 
Thanks.

Got it. I've been where you are as my projects started to grow in complexity as I became better and more familiar with the mixing process. I now create bus submixes whenever I can, before I start adding effects to try to prevent painting myself into a corner down the road...
 
Regards,
Dan
 

dcumpian
Got it. I've been where you are as my projects started to grow in complexity as I became better and more familiar with the mixing process. I now create bus submixes whenever I can, before I start adding effects to try to prevent painting myself into a corner down the road...
 
Regards,
Dan
 

Indeed and I do generally ensure there are enough busses available or the chain is mapped out to accommodate. I generally end up with a slew of busses (I think my current project has well over a dozen at this point). To really get what I need out of this using the bus method there would have to be calculated subdivisions for each set of tracks to be affected and each effect to really get the control I'm envisioning. Certainly possible but at that point I think the extra complexity ends up making things even more difficult than manually copying the envelopes.
 
I am definitely seeing now why a lot of people might opt for live automation from a controller (because you can group the paramaters to a single knob).
 
Yanno... maybe that's the answer it was mentioned upthread I think (and I believe in some threads on other sites as I've been researching the topic).
 
I am not sure how I would do this but maybe there is a way to create a "track" that sends these MIDI control messages. On that track I create my envelopes and they go out from there and control the parameters. So kind of like "faking" live automation writing to the target tracks but with playback stopped from an envelope.
 
I have absolutely no idea how to set something like that up or if it's even possible. Might require some special plugin or something?
 
Anyway... still thinking and will research that.
 
Cheers and thanks again.
 
Edit: I had another thought and I'm pretty sure this is not the case but if there was some kind of Automation Step Record" option where with playback stopped I could control an envelope (multiple envelopes) from the controller. Like pick a spot, set the Now Time, do something with the controller that generates the appropriate nodes to turn everything after that point up/down by adjusting a fader or knob on the controller.
 
Not ideal and I really doubt it's possible but that might be interesting. Still not as good as linked envelopes.

I believe you are thinking about Remote Control, an option found by right-clicking a slider. It almost works, at least when I was trying it out yesterday when you posted this thread. It is possible to send the same MIDI data to multiple faders, no need to use groups. I did not think it produced a very good result though. Give it a shot, you might have better results.

Thank you. I will look into that.
 
Edit to the following Edit: In the next ramble I describe how to control multiple parameters from an external controller. If you continue reading the thread the smarters folks show how to use a VIRTUAL controller to accomplish the same thing and then edit the envelopes inside that virt controller's track (which then controls the desired target parameters). This makes a lot of things possible based on my initial peabrained assumptions in regards to this technique. I am referring specifically to the BlueCat plug posted by xbitz (watch his vid) and the free virt MIDI cable stuff scook is posting about.
 
original ramble....
 
Edit: After so much time dealing with plugins MIDI learn (synths/effects) I had forgotten that Sonar controls need to be mapped through the Remote Control dialog.
 
For anyone looking at that approach to accomplish what I'm trying first do as scook said... Right Click (on a paramater you want to control in Sonar like a fader/pan knob/Prochannel module param/etc) > Remote Control. The Remote Control Dialog pops up. You need to choose the correct option from the Radio Buttons (Note On, Controller, Wheel, etc). In my case I wanted to use a knob on my M-Audio Oxygen 25 to control volume fader movement (just as a test) so I had to choose "Controller". For a button like Mute you'll probably want Note On or Note On/Off (these mean and do different things in MIDI so look it up). You can manually type in the MIDI Controller # you want (so you need to know what message your controller sends for each control) but it is easier to use the "Learn" option. So just press the Learn button in the Remote Control dialog and move the physical control on you MIDI device (it will not move the paramater inside Sonar yet). Click OK. Now (if you chose the right option from the Radio Buttons) that parameter will move when you adjust the control on your MIDI device.
 
Then to make that control adjust more than one parameter in Sonar (in this case I chose the next track's fader just for simplicity) just repeat the procedure with the new paramaters (Right Click > Remote Control > Learn... and so on). Be sure to use the SAME control on your MIDI device if you want to control multiple paramaters from that dial/knob/wheel/button/whatever.
 
Then to write the automation across all the tracks open each tracks take lanes, use the Edit Filter (the little dropdown on the take lane control area) to find the paramater you just mapped (in my case it was Volume which is there automatically but if you dig through the menus you can find everything available on that track). Click the W (Write Automation) button on the lane. Press playback and go nuts. If you did it correctly the changes should appear in the envelope.
 
Most of the old timers likely know this... and so did I (even though I forgot about the Remote Control dialog). I just remember trying to figure this crap out a couple years ago and it was very confusing. So since it was something I brought up in the thread and I like to make sure anyone looking for solutions have step by step instructions.... there they are.
 
That is only for writing live automation envelopes on multiple Sonar parameters though. MIDI Learn can be different for effects and synths and usually described in the manuals. The Take Lane edit filter stuff will remain the same though (I think).
 
Maybe that will help some random internet traveller.
 
Cheers.
 
PS: The results of doing the above are exactly as I expected from the live automation writing technique/grouping multiple controls (I was actually referring more to MIDI controller grouping as opposed to the internal Control Group stuff in Sonar but the lingo kind of fails to be descriptive enough to differentiate in text). It works as I envisioned but of course is not ideal for what I want to do. It's dicey and creates too many nodes as the change occurs. Editing after the fact will result in the envelopes no longer being the same either which would also be an extra benefit of linking envelopes. Essentially live automation writing to multiple params simultaneously from a controller is great but falls apart if you want to edit those live envelopes afterward (they no longer match).