gmpI haven't tried recreating the problem by hand, because first of all it doesn't happen constantly. But when it does happen and is recorded that way, it plays back that way every time. I've played piano tracks that I know where played right and then upon playing back I heard spots where it ignored the sus pedal in the up position. At first I thought it was an anomaly, but when I started noticing it more, I realized it was a bug.
 
THis problem only occurs with softsynths, if I play the midi track triggering my external synths they work just fine and don't ignore sus pedal up events.
 
Thanks for looking into this,

This is what I'm seeing as well. It doesn't happen all the time, which makes it even weirder.
 
Regards,
Dan
 
 

 
 

gmp

dcumpian
Loaded the Midi data into a new CWP with Ivory. Ivory did not respond to any of the pedal up events. In the PRV, the pedal up (CC64 = 0) is clearly after notes that should have already ended, but are still playing.
 
To hear it more clearly, I then moved two of the bass notes to another note (clashing) and raised the velocity. Still happened. Then I shortened one of those notes and it did respond to the pedal up, even though the note length displayed in the PRV was already not long enough to still play after the pedal up. Either there is some problem with Ivory and X3e, or the PRV is not accurately displaying note lengths, or pedal up positions properly. It's pretty crazy because after changing the notes, just a tiny bit, they did respond correctly.
 
I didn't have time to play around with the data beyond that...
 
Regards,
Dan
 

Thanks for verifying this bug. How long ago did you upgrade from X1 to X3? We both have Ivory and we both have Komplete. I haven't had Komplete that long, so I may try an old image file before I got Komplete and see if it happens there. Let me know if you have an theories on why this is happening

I just upgraded two weeks ago. So far, this is the only anomaly I've run into, and I still have a lot to learn about take lanes. I miss layers a little bit, lol...
 
Now, I haven't started actually mixing anything yet as I'm still in the tracking stage...
 
Regards,
Dan
 
 

dcumpian
 

gmp

dcumpian
Loaded the Midi data into a new CWP with Ivory. Ivory did not respond to any of the pedal up events. In the PRV, the pedal up (CC64 = 0) is clearly after notes that should have already ended, but are still playing.
 
To hear it more clearly, I then moved two of the bass notes to another note (clashing) and raised the velocity. Still happened. Then I shortened one of those notes and it did respond to the pedal up, even though the note length displayed in the PRV was already not long enough to still play after the pedal up. Either there is some problem with Ivory and X3e, or the PRV is not accurately displaying note lengths, or pedal up positions properly. It's pretty crazy because after changing the notes, just a tiny bit, they did respond correctly.
 
I didn't have time to play around with the data beyond that...
 
Regards,
Dan
 

Thanks for verifying this bug. How long ago did you upgrade from X1 to X3? We both have Ivory and we both have Komplete. I haven't had Komplete that long, so I may try an old image file before I got Komplete and see if it happens there. Let me know if you have an theories on why this is happening

I just upgraded two weeks ago. So far, this is the only anomaly I've run into, and I still have a lot to learn about take lanes. I miss layers a little bit, lol...
 
Now, I haven't started actually mixing anything yet as I'm still in the tracking stage...
 
Regards,
Dan
 
 

I installed X3 about 3 weeks ago. The first week I started getting used to it, but didn't do any serious work, I used 8.5. The 2nd week I started using X3e and I noticed some sustain pedal problems, but ignored them since I was distracted by getting used to many other things. I just zeroed in on this bug a few days ago. 
 
We now have something else in common we just started using X3 very recently, the plot thickens. I guess it could have something to do with the latest Win 7 updates possibly. Let me know if you think of anything else.

dcumpian
I just had this happen to me yesterday with X3e and Ivory. Turned out that the pedal up was too close to the end of the notes. When I shortened the notes a bit in PRV, the problem went away. I didn't ever have this happen in X1d, so something has changed.
 
Regards,
Dan
 

I've had issues with the sustain pedal controllers before as well… when opening an older version project. It would seem like the "up/down" controllers got reversed so when it was supposed to be a down pedal it was seeing it as up and visa versa.  Adding a new control (up/down) event before the first existing event would get things back "on track"

rcrees

dcumpian
I just had this happen to me yesterday with X3e and Ivory. Turned out that the pedal up was too close to the end of the notes. When I shortened the notes a bit in PRV, the problem went away. I didn't ever have this happen in X1d, so something has changed.
 
Regards,
Dan
 

I've had issues with the sustain pedal controllers before as well… when opening an older version project. It would seem like the "up/down" controllers got reversed so when it was supposed to be a down pedal it was seeing it as up and visa versa.  Adding a new control (up/down) event before the first existing event would get things back "on track"

So are you referring to X3 when you say the "up/down" controllers got reversed?
In fact I think that if they were reversed in my example, it would create the same problem we're hearing. 
 
When you say Adding a new control (up/down) event before the first existing event would get things back "on track". Do you mean if the first event was a down, then you'd add one more down in front of it? I assume you mean the  first existing event that seemed to be reversed? Sounds like a valuable trick to know.


IN all the versions before the X series there was a display of overwrite and sound on sound. I'm disgusted they've removed that feature and refuse to add it back in. I finally gave up asking. I used to use sound on sound to fix sustain pedal problems that I created by auto-punching in and out. Since I can't tell visually what mode I'm in, I've decided to just use the piano roll view to fix the sus pedals

gmp

rcrees

dcumpian
I just had this happen to me yesterday with X3e and Ivory. Turned out that the pedal up was too close to the end of the notes. When I shortened the notes a bit in PRV, the problem went away. I didn't ever have this happen in X1d, so something has changed.
 
Regards,
Dan
 

I've had issues with the sustain pedal controllers before as well… when opening an older version project. It would seem like the "up/down" controllers got reversed so when it was supposed to be a down pedal it was seeing it as up and visa versa.  Adding a new control (up/down) event before the first existing event would get things back "on track"

So are you referring to X3 when you say the "up/down" controllers got reversed?
In fact I think that if they were reversed in my example, it would create the same problem we're hearing. 
 
When you say Adding a new control (up/down) event before the first existing event would get things back "on track". Do you mean if the first event was a down, then you'd add one more down in front of it? I assume you mean the  first existing event that seemed to be reversed? Sounds like a valuable trick to know.


IN all the versions before the X series there was a display of overwrite and sound on sound. I'm disgusted they've removed that feature and refuse to add it back in. I finally gave up asking. I used to use sound on sound to fix sustain pedal problems that I created by auto-punching in and out. Since I can't tell visually what mode I'm in, I've decided to just use the piano roll view to fix the sus pedals

When I say "up/down" what I mean is the controller event for "off/on" for the sustain pedal.  I can't remember the controller number, but I believe the number is the same for on OR off… and I believe that the way it works in the midi file is that it reads the first instance as "pedal down" since it would be up to start with.  Then, when you release the pedal it inserts the same controller number, but interprets it as pedal up and so on until the end of the file.  So, if at the beginning of your track there is an extra OR missing controller event, they would be off…reversed… for the rest of the file.  It could possibly be that your piano track starts with the pedal down, but the controller, since it is at the very beginning might not be carried over when you copy and paste.  Try inserting a controller (again, I can't remember the number right now) somewhere near the beginning or maybe even a couple of measures in and see if that puts things back on track… that has helped me in the past.
 
Rob

rcrees
I believe the number is the same for on OR off… and I believe that the way it works in the midi file is that it reads the first instance as "pedal down" since it would be up to start with.  Then, when you release the pedal it inserts the same controller number, but interprets it as pedal up and so on until the end of the file.

Yes, the Continuous Controller number for sustain is always 64, but the value varies from 0 to 127. As I mentioned earlier, for a synth that only has on/off response to sustain, 0-63 is OFF (up), and 64-127 is ON (down), but most controllers only send 0 and 127. In any case, the differeing values mean that you can put sustain controllers of any value in any order, including multiple messages with the same value, and the synth should always "know" what behavior to exhibit at any given point in the sequence.
 
If a particular synth were to assume that the first CC64 message always represents pedal down and that the next message is always the opposite state, that would be very bad programming, but I've never seen one that makes that mistake.
 
 

brundlefly

rcrees
I believe the number is the same for on OR off… and I believe that the way it works in the midi file is that it reads the first instance as "pedal down" since it would be up to start with.  Then, when you release the pedal it inserts the same controller number, but interprets it as pedal up and so on until the end of the file.

Yes, the Continuous Controller number for sustain is always 64, but the value varies from 0 to 127. As I mentioned earlier, for a synth that only has on/off response to sustain, 0-63 is OFF (up), and 64-127 is ON (down), but most controllers only send 0 and 127. In any case, the differeing values mean that you can put sustain controllers of any value in any order, including multiple messages with the same value, and the synth should always "know" what behavior to exhibit at any given point in the sequence.
 
If a particular synth were to assume that the first CC64 message always represents pedal down and that the next message is always the opposite state, that would be very bad programming, but I've never seen one that makes that mistake.
 

Sorry.  Of course, you are absolutely right.  On is 127 and off is 0.  What I've experienced in the past is (and strangely enough, just recently) is a case where my sustain pedal gets switched.  I load in a new piano synth and without touching the pedal, it assumes that the pedal is already in the "down" position… and the first press of the pedal sends a "0" or "off" message.  When I release the pedal it sends a "127" or "on".  Very strange behavior that happens very rarely.  But I believe it is my Keystation, or the pedal.  When I reboot my system (including the Keystation) all goes back to "normal".  I don't think it is a SONAR issue...
 
Best,
Rob

Hmmm... that's interesting. Some pedals have the opposite analog open/closed switch state for up/down, and sometimes a keyboard has to be powered up with the pedal down to establish the correct relationship between the switch state and which CC value is sent. But that shouldn't affect the default state of a soft synth unless maybe the keyboard is powered up after the project and soft synth are already up.
 
In any case, that all sounds like something different than what the OP is reporting with differing behavior between X1 and X3. I'm still stumped about that one.
 
 
 
 

I just recorded a piano track with lots of sustain pedal. Upon playback at bar 49 I noticed the sus pedal was stuck in the down position. It was clearly not doing that when I recorded the track. I played bar 49 a couple of times and it was bad each time. So I cloned the track and then found out both the original track and the clone track were fixed - no sus problem. I hit undo and sure enough the original track had the sus problem again. I hit redo and it was gone.

Hit undo where the problem was and copied the midi data. I then cloned a new piano track this time without copying the data and pasted the midi data in this new track. It was fine  - no sus problem.

WHen I originally tried to capture this problem a week ago, I thought I noticed cloning of the track fixed the problem, so back then I opened the TTS-1 piano and copied the midi data into it's midi track and the problem was there and I used this as my example. This has got to be the strangest bug. I guess when you clone, something gets reset.

I opened piano roll view and hit undo until I had the problem and saw the sus pedal events, which looked fine, but weren't working right. I then hit redo and kept the piano roll open and so no change in the piano roll, yet the problem was fixed. In the event list nothing changes from when I have the problem and when it's fixed.

By the way WHERE IS CAKEWALK? I've gotten no response at all from this thread, no suggestions, nothing. I sent in an email tech support issue about resetting VST Scan on 4/22 (10 days ago) and have gotten no response except the initial automated email. I've emailed them 2x asking if they could respond - nothing. I know phone support is better, and I may have to resort to that.