• SONAR
  • The Foxboro Plug-In Upsampling Thread (p.10)
2015/07/02 17:00:44
thornton
can we get an example of this in a video or audio so I can hear the difference. is there a setting other than what is on the plugin
2015/07/02 17:05:06
scook
there is an audio example see msg http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3248709
2015/07/02 18:27:55
slartabartfast

Anderton
The examples are NOT upsampled audio files, but rendered virtual instruments. In other words, the first example was a virtual instrument sitting in a 44.1 kHz project. It was never recorded at 44.1 kHz, it was rendered at 44.1 kHz. The second example has the same instrument, same track, same MIDI data feeding it, etc., and was also never recorded at 44.1 kHz. However, it was rendered at 96 kHz via upsampling, then downsampled to 44.1 kHz.

What you're seeing in the graph is what's so cool about the process; what is in the audio range is reproduced accurately when downsampled.


Thank you for the clarification, perhaps I was confused by the limited description of the process in your post here, and added to the confusion with my "upsampled/downsampled" abbreviation. The issue with the difference in frequency distribution is not an indication of distortion introduced by the higher sample rate resampled to a lower rate per se, and I would not have expected that it was. Nor is the difference in the two clear evidence that the, to me, more pleasing sound of the second example is due to the elimination of foldover distortion. The argument I put forward in my post here that such a removal of the aliased frequencies would not be manifested as additional power at new frequencies is the same regardless. The black box virtual instrument must have generated the new frequencies when sitting in a 96 K project that it did not generate in a 44.1 K project. That those new features were preserved in the downsampling is not amazing, although it is cool, since they represent features that were created by the virtual instrument under the altered conditons of the higher sample rate. The preservation of those features would be true of any rendered audio signal properly downsampled. Once they were generated you could upsample and downsample the rendered audio back and forth and they would be minimally altered.
 
With a virtual instrument, the issue of fidelity or distortion is problematic. The  instrument in your example generates distinctly different tones in projects at different sample rates. Is the "true" tone the one produced in the lower or higher sample rate environment? Is the lower sample project output the one intended by the designer, or was the instrument unable for some reason to generate the intended features at the lower rate? As Noel suggests here the source of the difference is in the DSP algorithms hidden in the instrument, and are not predictable without knowing what is happening inside the black box. Why the designer would have chosen algorithms that produce such different renderings is a mystery. The issue in this case is esthetic, and in that sense this local oversampling feature can be looked at as an effect, like highpass filtering followed by a chorus or flanger or the like. if you like the output of this particular instrument better with the upsampling on, then by all means turn it on. With other plugins like a limiter or compressor that are generally intended to be "transparent," affecting only a limited aspect of the audio input to the plugin, such as volume, this kind of behavior would be objectionable to most users.
 
Some readers of this thread may be under the impression that upsampling prior to engaging the plugin will result in some kind of general "repair" of faulty or deficient plugins, and that the mechanism of that repair is that the higher sample rate eliminates aliasing introduced by the plugin. In specific cases it may, but it can not be taken as a general rule. Nor can the fact that the output sounds "different" with the upsampling engaged be equated with it sounding better or more accurately processing the input without additional demonstration. On the other hand, if there is no difference in the output at different sample rates, the proposition that the plugin has been properly designed to produce the same output at both sample rates is more secure.
 
2015/07/02 19:02:17
Notecrusher
slartabartfast

Anderton
The examples are NOT upsampled audio files, but rendered virtual instruments. In other words, the first example was a virtual instrument sitting in a 44.1 kHz project. It was never recorded at 44.1 kHz, it was rendered at 44.1 kHz. The second example has the same instrument, same track, same MIDI data feeding it, etc., and was also never recorded at 44.1 kHz. However, it was rendered at 96 kHz via upsampling, then downsampled to 44.1 kHz.

What you're seeing in the graph is what's so cool about the process; what is in the audio range is reproduced accurately when downsampled.


Thank you for the clarification, perhaps I was confused by the limited description of the process in your post here, and added to the confusion with my "upsampled/downsampled" abbreviation. The issue with the difference in frequency distribution is not an indication of distortion introduced by the higher sample rate resampled to a lower rate per se, and I would not have expected that it was. Nor is the difference in the two clear evidence that the, to me, more pleasing sound of the second example is due to the elimination of foldover distortion. The argument I put forward in my post here that such a removal of the aliased frequencies would not be manifested as additional power at new frequencies is the same regardless. The black box virtual instrument must have generated the new frequencies when sitting in a 96 K project that it did not generate in a 44.1 K project. That those new features were preserved in the downsampling is not amazing, although it is cool, since they represent features that were created by the virtual instrument under the altered conditons of the higher sample rate. The preservation of those features would be true of any rendered audio signal properly downsampled. Once they were generated you could upsample and downsample the rendered audio back and forth and they would be minimally altered.
 
With a virtual instrument, the issue of fidelity or distortion is problematic. The  instrument in your example generates distinctly different tones in projects at different sample rates. Is the "true" tone the one produced in the lower or higher sample rate environment? Is the lower sample project output the one intended by the designer, or was the instrument unable for some reason to generate the intended features at the lower rate? As Noel suggests here the source of the difference is in the DSP algorithms hidden in the instrument, and are not predictable without knowing what is happening inside the black box. Why the designer would have chosen algorithms that produce such different renderings is a mystery. The issue in this case is esthetic, and in that sense this local oversampling feature can be looked at as an effect, like highpass filtering followed by a chorus or flanger or the like. if you like the output of this particular instrument better with the upsampling on, then by all means turn it on. With other plugins like a limiter or compressor that are generally intended to be "transparent," affecting only a limited aspect of the audio input to the plugin, such as volume, this kind of behavior would be objectionable to most users.
 
Some readers of this thread may be under the impression that upsampling prior to engaging the plugin will result in some kind of general "repair" of faulty or deficient plugins, and that the mechanism of that repair is that the higher sample rate eliminates aliasing introduced by the plugin. In specific cases it may, but it can not be taken as a general rule. Nor can the fact that the output sounds "different" with the upsampling engaged be equated with it sounding better or more accurately processing the input without additional demonstration. On the other hand, if there is no difference in the output at different sample rates, the proposition that the plugin has been properly designed to produce the same output at both sample rates is more secure.
 




Thank you for delineating my point in an extraordinarily clear fashion.
2015/07/02 19:27:21
thornton
is up sampling  the same as oversampling and do you have to record at 96k or 44.1 for this to work just trying to understand further thanks for Y'all help
 
2015/07/02 20:09:46
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
slartabartfast
Thank you for the clarification, perhaps I was confused by the limited description of the process in your post here, and added to the confusion with my "upsampled/downsampled" abbreviation. The issue with the difference in frequency distribution is not an indication of distortion introduced by the higher sample rate resampled to a lower rate per se, and I would not have expected that it was. ...
 
The argument I put forward in my post here that such a removal of the aliased frequencies would not be manifested as additional power at new frequencies is the same regardless. T

 
I agree with what you are saying. We answered most of these questions and explained it quite clearly in the e-zine. I've copied the relevant section below. Regarding how you could get a power boost its hard to say without guessing With foldover distortion its possible that the folded back frequencies could be additive with other preexisting low/mids or it could even diminish the gain if they happened to be phase inverted. Another possibility with instruments is they may actually be using different samples at different sample rates to avoid internal resampling. Or it could be just DSP bugs :) The bottom line is you should use judgement in deciding whether you like it or not - distortion may not always be a bad thing as most guitar players would tell you, although foldover distortion is not typically something you would want. 
 
 
LIMITATIONS OF UPSAMPLING
Please note that only some plug-ins, generally older ones, benefit from upsampling and only if significant high frequencies are present. If no harmonics exist that reach into the range of the clock, there will be no foldover distortion, hence no need for upsampling. There can be a significant improvement in sound quality with some plug-ins, no improvement with others, and a few may actually sound worse. So, upsampling is enabled on a per-plug-in basis—in other words, enabling upsampling for one plug-in enables it for all instances of that one plug-in, in any project.
Because this rendering process is CPU-intensive, do not enable upsampling for a particular plug-in unless you can hear an actual difference. Note that SONAR’s high-end sample rate conversion requires considerable CPU power, so this process is available only when doing a fast (non-real-time) bounce. Also, the maximum upsample rate is 384 kHz, so upsampling is not available for projects that run above 192 kHz; and at present upsampling cannot be applied to plug-ins in surround buses, or to bit-bridged plug-ins or region effects.
Finally, note that some plug-ins may not support operating at a higher sample rate. In this case, SONAR displays an error message toast notification, and performs the plug-in bounce at the original project sample rate.
 
It’s also important to remember that the sound designer probably built a sound based on what was heard. If you now process at high sample rates, the sound may be brighter because the high frequencies are no longer being folded back, and there could be less perceived low end because the foldover distortion is no longer there. Whether that sounds “better” or not is subjective.
2015/07/02 21:15:05
Anderton
slartabartfast
Some readers of this thread may be under the impression that upsampling prior to engaging the plugin will result in some kind of general "repair" of faulty or deficient plugins, and that the mechanism of that repair is that the higher sample rate eliminates aliasing introduced by the plugin. In specific cases it may, but it can not be taken as a general rule. Nor can the fact that the output sounds "different" with the upsampling engaged be equated with it sounding better or more accurately processing the input without additional demonstration. 



This is pretty much explained in the eZine. I would recommend reading it if people want to know more.
 
The bottom line is a) it can make a difference, and b) it needs to be tried on a case-by-case basis.
2015/07/03 07:58:08
mudgel
Anderton
slartabartfast
Some readers of this thread may be under the impression that upsampling prior to engaging the plugin will result in some kind of general "repair" of faulty or deficient plugins, and that the mechanism of that repair is that the higher sample rate eliminates aliasing introduced by the plugin. In specific cases it may, but it can not be taken as a general rule. Nor can the fact that the output sounds "different" with the upsampling engaged be equated with it sounding better or more accurately processing the input without additional demonstration. 




This is pretty much explained in the eZine. I would recommend reading it to people who want to know more.
 
The bottom line is a) it can make a difference, and b) it needs to be tried on a case-by-case basis.


Feel free to come and read it to me any time. Though a little notice before you visit would be nice. Thanks.
2015/07/03 08:01:58
Doktor Avalanche
#88 
 

2015/07/03 11:50:08
Anderton
mudgel
Anderton
This is pretty much explained in the eZine. I would recommend reading it to people who want to know more.


Feel free to come and read it to me any time. Though a little notice before you visit would be nice. Thanks.



Ha! Yes, I just noticed the ambiguous phrasing and changed it. Although I suppose we could have a group Skype meeting and someone could read it to everyone else 
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